Philosophy Now Forum

we see the modern world in action in the ''thread'' of the moment..
in which a couple of posters are demanding a genocide of an entire religion....
based on their interpretation of what is in that religion set of instructions....
the Koran... which is just another set of religious instructions, like
the bible and the torah and other sets of religious instructions....
(The Buddha for example never wrote down his set of religious instructions,
it was written down by others)

the problem as I see it, is that we have had many, many, many different
types of religious instructions over the history of human existence.....
think of the types of religious instructions over the years and ponder
them..... virtually all of them are over a thousand years old.....

What religions are not at least a thousand years old?
you have some minor ones, Mormon, Scientology? (if you consider that
a religion) Bahai faith, Cheondoism, but all of these faiths are relatively
recent religions....the big 5 religions are all over a thousand years old...
religions before the modern age of the various revolutions of human beings...
the scientific revolution, the political revolution, the industrial revolution,
the technological revolution, the social revolution........

the fact is that over the last 200 years, our world has changed dramatically,
and the political, social, scientific, and technological changes have been
vast and widespread... and yet, our religions, have not change nor have
they adapted in this new world of ours.......

we are holding to anachronistic beliefs in a modern world... what could
possibly go wrong there? well, pretty much everything can go wrong...
as history has demonstrated... as I have pointed out, we have had
two world wars, the Holocaust, multiple minor wars, widespread
social and economic dissatisfaction with our modern world, the Depression,
and the list can go on....or am I the only one who remembers the "My Lai''
massacre or Kent state?

the general dissatisfaction of our age, the general malaise of our times,
what is the source of this? Many have suggested that we have left
our religious history, that we no longer hold to god the way we should
hold to him.... or that we no longer pray to god... whichever god....

it is my contention that our dissatisfaction/malaise comes from this
source of supposed unity, religions.....the value of religion is to
promote unity, Catholic as is known, means universal....
and yet, we are as far from having a universal faith, or values
or beliefs as we possibly can be.... if some are holding Christian
values and some are hold Muslim values and some are holding
to Jewish values, and millions like myself, don't hold to any religious
values at all, so, where exactly does the unity come from?

How do we reach unity of values if everyone holds to different values?
the solution for some, is a genocide of those who don't hold to the
''right'' beliefs...... which is to say, commit violence to any who don't
hold my own belief, my own faith.... and the road to unity and peace
certainly, cannot come from violence of the threat of a genocide....

so, how do we overcome this ''addiction'' we have to religions?
and the need for faith is an addiction..... as is the need for unity,
another addiction......

Addiction: the fact or condition of being addicted to a
particular substance, thing or ACTIVITY.
''He committed theft to finance his drug addiction''

just as we are addicted to money and its effects, we are also
addicted to the religious faith and its effects......

so, the question becomes, how do we achieve a unity of beliefs,
of faith in a world that clearly has no unity of beliefs or faiths?

so, how do we achieve unity of values in our modern world?

Kropotkin

so, think about it.....

how do we achieve a unity of beliefs of values, given
our fragmented world today?

do we engage with violence as suggested by a couple of posters
here or do we try something different?

you cannot find peace or a path to peace with violence, or
the threat of genocide... for the only thing violence begats,
is more violence.....the path of genocide will only bring us
more violence and hatred and death... nothing more than that....
but will it bring us peace or unity? nope.....

so, what is the path to peace or to unity?

One of the things that has become very clear in the modern world
is that a unified theory of everything, isn't possible.... there is no
theory that will unify people into one group.....
in a world of multiplicity, like the one we have today,
the only answer is multiplicity itself.....

Instead of seeking unity of values or of religion or of politics...
we accept the modern universe of multiplicity and diversity.....
if there is no one, no unity to be achieve, then we must adapt
or accept diversity of values.... there is no other choice.....
if we can't have unity, and it appears we cannot, then let us take
the next option which is the acceptance of diversity and the value
of mulitiplicity.....

and the ones of hate, the ones who are advocating violence and genocide
will whine about how the Muslims will never accept peace or accept other
values..... if the answer is not violence or genocide, then the answer is
peace and acceptance... as violence only begats violence, the only other
possibility is peace...

the burden of peace and acceptance doesn't fall on the Muslims,
it falls on you.... that is where peace and acceptance begins.....
on you....one might say, peace with the Muslims is not possible
and it was a truism that there would never be peace between France
and Germany... or France and England......wars between France and
Germany has gone on for over 2000 years... and France and England for
over a 1000 years..... one might recall that France and Germany were
at war only 80 years ago.... or just 14 years before my birth...

will they ever war against each other again?
I doubt it and why? because the benefits of peace outweigh
the costs of war.... there are no winners in war... just survivors....
and there is no point or value in having a war, which has been going
on for over 1000 years, between Islam and Christianity.....
does a war that has lasted a thousand years, does that war have
a winner? it is clear that the war between Muslims and Christianity
has become a stalemate....it cannot go on forever....
and if warfare has failed, then perhaps try something new, like
offering peace instead of violence?

the trick is not to force unity, but to accept diversity and multiplicity....
that is the path into the future.... if all you offer them is violence
and genocide, where is the benefit of Muslims accepting those terms?
if you want peace, you have to offer peace...
and that is true between two people, two tribes, two forms
of government, two religions, two corporations.... conflict can
only go one of two ways, continued conflict, violence, or
it can try for peace and acceptance......

have you tried peace and acceptance?

NO, because you can only think of violence and genocide
as being the answer.......

Here in America, why hasn't the war between Christians and Muslims
gone violent? because of the fact that all religions are valued
and accepted... the Muslims and Jews don't fight each other in
America.... because the religious clause of America is this....

''Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: or abridging
the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of
the people peaceably to assemble and petition the government
for a redress of grievances''

the right to the freedom of religions is codified right in the bill of rights...
hence there is no religious violence in America....even between groups
who have historically taken to violence against each other....

as the radical religious right have taken to restricting religions,
the increase of religious violence increases in America today.....
allowing people to practice their religions, keeps the peace
restricting people from practicing their religions, brings about
violence.... it is that simple....


peace cannot come from violence and talk of genocide...
peace can only come from the acceptance of values and
a commitment to peace...unity is not the goal, peace is the goal....
and acceptance of diversity is the path to peace, not the path
to violence.....

Kropotkin

every single attempt in the last 200 years to enforce uniformity,
to enforce a single point of view has ended in violence...

Vietnam was an attempt to enforce western values in Vietnam...
how that work out? to attempt to force a single point of view,
such as a uniformity in religion, politics, social values, in
economics has ended in failure and violence.....
every single attempt....

Perhaps we can learn from that......and accept that forcing one
viewpoint is the path to failure... and the path to success?
the path to success is valuing and accepting values and beliefs
that are different than ours... America succeeded because
it didn't try to enforce one set of values, be it religious,
social, political or economic.... it accepted and valued
diversity, a difference in values........ where violence has
occurred in America has been when one group or people try
to force its values on another group of people....

the path is not about getting a unified viewpoint or a unity of values,
the path is the acceptance of different values and ideas....
now one might say, the Muslims will attempt to force us into their
religion..... but as been clearly shown by history, that path is the path
to violence... all the Muslims will achieve is violence...nothing more...
and violence is met with violence... there is no other possible response....
and peace will be met by peace.......

there is no one unifying religion, politics, economics, social,
or philosophical path to peace.... the universe is governed
by multiplicity, not uniformity.... and we must apply that
to all facets of our state and society... the answer is not
unity, but acceptance of diversity.... that will be the path to peace...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 3:40 pm we see the modern world in action in the ''thread'' of the moment..
in which a couple of posters are demanding a genocide of an entire religion....

Maybe attofishpi did, who else? Quotes please.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 3:40 pm we see the modern world in action in the ''thread'' of the moment..
in which a couple of posters are demanding a genocide of an entire religion....
based on their interpretation of what is in that religion set of instructions....
the Koran... which is just another set of religious instructions, like
the bible and the torah and other sets of religious instructions....
(The Buddha for example never wrote down his set of religious instructions,
it was written down by others)

What is the point of studying world religions if after doing so you cannot discern the thing that sets Islam apart from the other religions.

All you need to do since you are clearly an idiot is see how human rights and democracy are going in the Islamic countries. ..AND understand that Muslims want to live under a Caliphate WHEREVER they settle!!

LIVE: Islamists Explain How They Will Take Over Britain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtFc6KC0Hg

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:36 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 3:40 pm we see the modern world in action in the ''thread'' of the moment..
in which a couple of posters are demanding a genocide of an entire religion....
based on their interpretation of what is in that religion set of instructions....
the Koran... which is just another set of religious instructions, like
the bible and the torah and other sets of religious instructions....
(The Buddha for example never wrote down his set of religious instructions,
it was written down by others)

What is the point of studying world religions if after doing so you cannot discern the thing that sets Islam apart from the other religions.

All you need to do since you are clearly an idiot is see how human rights and democracy are going in the Islamic countries. ..AND understand that Muslims want to live under a Caliphate WHEREVER they settle!!

LIVE: Islamists Explain How They Will Take Over Britain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtFc6KC0Hg

K: I am old and one of the ''perks'' of being old is that we have lived
and seen history.... I have been on the web since the early 1990's,
on various philosophy sites.... and every few years or so, this great
''CRY'' comes about the evil of Islam.... how entire cities in Michigan,
and in England have been taken over by Islamic extremist...
and how they are completely dominated by Sharia law....and the police
won't/don't go into these cities.... and the cities are completely
and totally dominated by Islamic extremists.... Over the years, I have
heard this about a dozen times... and yet, when quizzed as to what cities,
either in the US or the UK, have been taken over by extremists, these
people never seem to be able to name a city... or to point to an area
where this has happened.....

It is of course, nonsense.... well-traveled nonsense, but nevertheless,
nonsense.... and your ''take'' simply flies in the face of reality...
the reality of how immigrants enter a society, or state....
I live in California... we have a lot of immigrants... from all over
the world.... and it is quite clear how they go about their business....
they live in areas of familiarity.... south of me, is a city called
Redwood city... now Redwood City has a lot of immigrants living there
especially Mexicans....people who don't speak English, just Spanish...
(which I don't speak by the way) and the neighborhoods they live in,
are dominated by the Spanish language... signs, buildings, even street signs
are in Spanish.... but does that mean they live by Mexican laws or rules?
Nope... American laws and rules and policemen are the way of life in
these areas...... but the neighborhood looks completely like Mexico...
but it isn't.... It is America...now the racists among you might say that
RC is a Mexican dominated area with Mexican rules and laws and drugs.....
if one looks at it superficially... sure, it might look Mexican, but it isn't.....
and the same goes true for areas that look like Islamic dominated areas,
but they are American, and it goes true for the Chinese areas and the
Japanese and Filipino areas, Korean areas, all of which exists within 30 miles of me...

the name of the game for immigrants is not confrontation, but assimilation...
and that is what immigrants do, they don't confront, they assimilate to
the local culture and society..... as they have done in America for over
300 years....and counting....

unlike you, I don't deal with fear.. I deal with facts that I can see
and touch and hear... and your fear, and it is fear, is making you see
things that just aren't there......but that is what fear does... it paints
pictures of people, events and places that just don't exists...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 6:04 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:36 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 3:40 pm we see the modern world in action in the ''thread'' of the moment..
in which a couple of posters are demanding a genocide of an entire religion....
based on their interpretation of what is in that religion set of instructions....
the Koran... which is just another set of religious instructions, like
the bible and the torah and other sets of religious instructions....
(The Buddha for example never wrote down his set of religious instructions,
it was written down by others)

What is the point of studying world religions if after doing so you cannot discern the thing that sets Islam apart from the other religions.

All you need to do since you are clearly an idiot is see how human rights and democracy are going in the Islamic countries. ..AND understand that Muslims want to live under a Caliphate WHEREVER they settle!!

LIVE: Islamists Explain How They Will Take Over Britain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtFc6KC0Hg

K: I am old and one of the ''perks'' of being old is that we have lived
and seen history.... I have been on the web since the early 1990's,

I was doing IRC (Internet Relay Chat) in 1990.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:on various philosophy sites.... and every few years or so, this great
''CRY'' comes about the evil of Islam.... how entire cities in Michigan,
and in England have been taken over by Islamic extremist...
and how they are completely dominated by Sharia law....and the police
won't/don't go into these cities.... and the cities are completely
and totally dominated by Islamic extremists.... Over the years, I have
heard this about a dozen times... and yet, when quizzed as to what cities,
either in the US or the UK, have been taken over by extremists, these
people never seem to be able to name a city... or to point to an area
where this has happened.....

In the capital LONDON English native population is now the minority.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:It is of course, nonsense.... well-traveled nonsense, but nevertheless,
nonsense.... and your ''take'' simply flies in the face of reality...

Actually that's all your self indulged philosophical musings amount to. It's one thing to read lots of books on philosophy and religious doctrine, but if you haven't got the intellectual capacity to discern any reasonable arguments from what you have read, then perhaps you should partake in a different hobby - fishing perhaps.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 1:00 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 6:04 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:36 am

What is the point of studying world religions if after doing so you cannot discern the thing that sets Islam apart from the other religions.

All you need to do since you are clearly an idiot is see how human rights and democracy are going in the Islamic countries. ..AND understand that Muslims want to live under a Caliphate WHEREVER they settle!!

LIVE: Islamists Explain How They Will Take Over Britain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtFc6KC0Hg

K: I am old and one of the ''perks'' of being old is that we have lived
and seen history.... I have been on the web since the early 1990's,

ATTO: I was doing IRC (Internet Relay Chat) in 1990.

Peter Kropotkin: on various philosophy sites.... and every few years or so, this great
''CRY'' comes about the evil of Islam.... how entire cities in Michigan,
and in England have been taken over by Islamic extremist...
and how they are completely dominated by Sharia law....and the police
won't/don't go into these cities.... and the cities are completely
and totally dominated by Islamic extremists.... Over the years, I have
heard this about a dozen times... and yet, when quizzed as to what cities,
either in the US or the UK, have been taken over by extremists, these
people never seem to be able to name a city... or to point to an area
where this has happened.....

ATTO: In the capital LONDON English native population is now the minority.

K: AND of course every single one of those people are Muslim terrorists who are
trying to overthrow the English Monarch and replaced with Islamic
terrorism....

Peter Kropotkin: It is of course, nonsense.... well-traveled nonsense, but nevertheless,
nonsense.... and your ''take'' simply flies in the face of reality...

Atto: Actually that's all your self indulged philosophical musings amount to. It's one thing to read lots of books on philosophy and religious doctrine, but if you haven't got the intellectual capacity to discern any reasonable arguments from what you have read, then perhaps you should partake in a different hobby - fishing perhaps.

K: I have been engaged with Philosophy for over 40 years...
and when one philosopher attacks another, one common attack is to try for the
''lack of intellectual capacity'' it is a rather common tactic among
armchair philosophers... and I have seen it used a lot.... it is a sign
of laziness among those armchair philosophers... and had I been, like
yourself, an armchair philosopher, I would have certainly gone and attacked
your IQ or your limited intellect... but nah, I am not that person....

I have a quite different goal and agenda.... I am trying to use philosophy
as a ''way of life'' as was the case in ancient Athens or the use of religions
as Paul or even Jesus used it.... which is religion used not to get to heaven,
but as a way of life.... not as a theory but as a means of living....
and for me anyway, I use philosophy to dictate how I am to live...
to use the Kantian questions...

"What am I to do?" "What am I to hope/believe in?" ''What can I know?"

every single day, I am faced with these questions... ''What am I to do?''
what is the human answer to this question? not the religious answer,
to go to heaven... that is, rather weak... and unworthy of a human being...
but ''what am I to do?" as a serious question about what it means to be human.....

for me, it is a 24/7/365 question... a way of life question....
what does it mean to be human? as defined by a real human being,
not an armchair philosopher..... who only asks when the timing is
right, not as a 24/7/365 question...... If my day has gone by without
me asking, what does it mean to be human? I consider that day to be
a failure....a waste of time......I live, breath, dream about the Kantian
questions.... I try to live my life as a Kantian question.... as ''a way of life''
as a philosopher should live their life.... as a philosophical ''a way of life''
24/7/365.... I am doing something besides sleeping in my armchair....
I am attempting to find out, discover what it means to be human
and use that as ''a way of life''

How did you spend your day?

Kropotkin

WHY dont you learn to use the standard QUOTE function - I tried to tidy your way up but cbf - look at this mess!

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 2:07 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 1:00 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 6:04 pm
K: I am old and one of the ''perks'' of being old is that we have lived
and seen history.... I have been on the web since the early 1990's,

ATTO: I was doing IRC (Internet Relay Chat) in 1990.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:

ATTO wrote:: In the capital LONDON English native population is now the minority.

K: AND of course every single one of those people are Muslim terrorists who are
trying to overthrow the English Monarch and replaced with Islamic
terrorism....

ATTO: Actually conservative numbers at the moment of the Muslim population that desire a Caliphate is quite staggering, and they intentionally out breed natives in the countries they are infiltrating. In Sweden - as I posted a video of a Islamic cleric sniggering that they are out numbering the local childbirths 4-1.

The most popular name in England (and Sweden) for a boy is Mohammad. So the 'terrorist' aspect is put aside until they get the vote and into positions of power as they did to Lebanon.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
Actually that's all your self indulged philosophical musings amount to. It's one thing to read lots of books on philosophy and religious doctrine, but if you haven't got the intellectual capacity to discern any reasonable arguments from what you have read, then perhaps you should partake in a different hobby - fishing perhaps.

K: I have been engaged with Philosophy for over 40 years...
and when one philosopher attacks another, one common attack is to try for the
''lack of intellectual capacity'' it is a rather common tactic among
armchair philosophers... and I have seen it used a lot.... it is a sign
of laziness among those armchair philosophers... and had I been, like
yourself, an armchair philosopher, I would have certainly gone and attacked
your IQ or your limited intellect... but nah, I am not that person....

Call me anythinh you want, but if you are going to continue to make the claim that Christianity is equally 'evil' as Islam, then please provide the evidence. You set the challenge!!

All you have provided from Christ is:-

Luke 19:26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

Seems good ol' Christ was pretty fired up at the time. All he is doing AT THE TIME OF THE HEATED MOMENT is requesting his apostles bring some enemies to be killed in front of him. ..and ya know what? If I know my brother Christ (and I think I do) - he would likely have chastised them if they did bring enemies to be killed in front of them - to wise them up some more and perhaps to have those enemies see his love and compassion.


Now this is all I've bothered from the doctrine of Islam - good ol Mohammad:-
1. Marriage and sex with pre-menstrual girls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIsRJ3hiHpE
Introduction to Surah
65. At-Talâq

4. And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death][] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.


2. Killing on non-believers
“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone” (Quran 2:191-193).

“Strike off their heads and strike from them every fingertip” (Quran 8:12).

“Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties; in exchange for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they slay and are slain” (Quran 9:111).

“Truly Allah loves those who fight in His cause in battle array…” (Quran 61:4)

“The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah” (Sahih Muslim 1:33).

Mohammed’s last words: 'Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians because they took the graves of their Prophets as places for praying."'


3. Killing apostates
Bukhari[52:260] "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Quran[4:89] "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."


4. Rape of captured women enemies
Qur’an 4:24 permits intercourse with women captured in jihad (holy war). The verse states: “And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.” This implies that female captives can be taken as concubines or wives by Muslim men after they have been captured in battle


PS. There are 11 islamic countries that have the death penalty for homosexuals, yes they're killed just just being homosexuals. "Allah" instructs that theives have their hands chopped off

So I ask you again where I have questioned your intellectual capacity to reason:- Where does Christ instruct Christian followers to commit such barbaric acts on those that don't believe?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 2:07 am I have a quite different goal and agenda.... I am trying to use philosophy
as a ''way of life'' as was the case in ancient Athens or the use of religions
as Paul or even Jesus used it.... which is religion used not to get to heaven,
but as a way of life.... not as a theory but as a means of living....
and for me anyway, I use philosophy to dictate how I am to live...
to use the Kantian questions...

"What am I to do?" "What am I to hope/believe in?" ''What can I know?"

every single day, I am faced with these questions... ''What am I to do?''
what is the human answer to this question? not the religious answer,
to go to heaven... that is, rather weak... and unworthy of a human being...
but ''what am I to do?" as a serious question about what it means to be human.....

for me, it is a 24/7/365 question... a way of life question....
what does it mean to be human? as defined by a real human being,
not an armchair philosopher..... who only asks when the timing is
right, not as a 24/7/365 question...... If my day has gone by without
me asking, what does it mean to be human? I consider that day to be
a failure....a waste of time......I live, breath, dream about the Kantian
questions.... I try to live my life as a Kantian question.... as ''a way of life''
as a philosopher should live their life.... as a philosophical ''a way of life''
24/7/365.... I am doing something besides sleeping in my armchair....
I am attempting to find out, discover what it means to be human
and use that as ''a way of life''

How did you spend your day?

Kropotkin

Kant's vision and mission for humanity is;

• 1. What is like to be human
  2. What can we know [epistemology, science, etc.
  3. What can we do [morality & Ethics]
  4. What can we hope for - perpetual peace and flourishing

What is evil is antithetical to 4.
If a religion is inherent evil [as proven and evident], then humanity must weaned it off somehow in the future to enable 4.
What I see with Atto is, he is recommending we weaned it off gradually [not possible to be immediate] even the term 'wipe' is harsh.
What I read is, Atto's main focus in on the ideology not on the believers, any focus on the believers is like pulling weeds from the surface.