Philosophy Now Forum

in thinking about philosophy and history and economics
and politics and all the other disciplines that we hold to be true...
and right and study and have studied since for over 2,000 years
and we wonder why there hasn't been more progress in those fields....
especially in our area of study, philosophy... philosophy has not traveled
any further than the stylings of Plato and Aristotle... in fact, philosophy
still covers the exact same area's that both Plato and Aristotle covered...
and we have no better answers than either one them gave.....

and realistically, we cannot see any improvement in any of those other area's,
of history or economics or culture or politics.... which leads us to one of two
conclusions, that there cannot be any improvement in those area's...
philosophy for example, will continue to circle as it does because it can't
do any better... there are no answers, just questions....

or we are flat out doing it wrong....we start with ism's, such a
democracy or capitalism... and then travel to somewhere with that ism
being front and center of our studies... I see the world through that ism...
I see the world through the effects and power of capitalism.....
but what if, what if that is the wrong starting place?

each and every human ever born, has needs.... for food, water, shelter,
education, health care.... and psychological needs such as love, a sense
of belonging, esteem, and safety/security.... in some percentage, every
human being, EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING, needs love, food, water, safety/security,
a sense of belonging, of being esteemed......so, in light of this, we begin
with what we need, not with what we have created to meet our needs..
and that is what a state/society does.. it was created to meet our needs of
food, water, shelter, love, hope, safety/security, a sense of belonging,
and of esteem... are these needs our only needs?
not at all... but they are some of the basic ones.......so, in light of this,
we can now see that philosophy was created/invented to satisfy some need
of ours....to fulfill our needs, we created societies, states, science, philosophy,
history, economics, politics... all the basics of a state/society, was created to
meet/satisfy our needs...

but needs are not monolithic... that each person has different needs based
on one's history, lifestyles, choices, biological, and psychological needs...
I am one of five in my family, we are family but each one of us has
vastly different needs to satisfy......safety and security were needs that
were always fairly low on my list of needs... I could take care of myself,
so I had no real need for safety and security needs... others in my family
would rate safety and security much higher on their list of needs....with
the differences in needs, we see the state and the society differently ....
in terms of safety and security, I see it as less of a need and my sisters,
for example, they see safety and security as a more pressing matter...
our different needs create different ideas of the way, shape and form of
the state and how it serves us.......

and whereas I see the flow of information as completely necessary,
I don't believe in censorship of ideas or facts... whereas they, my sisters,
do believe in the censorship of ideas as being necessary for the safety
of the society/state at large.... we will leave the wondering of who is right,
and who is wrong, into other hands...

every aspect of a society/state is there to fulfill the needs of people,
in large numbers... the idea of a university was created to fulfill a societal
need.. of creating educated people to achieve the ever-growing task of a
society and state, that every single day become larger and more complex....
we build institutions like the IRS and Congress and the Military and
universities to fulfill our needs....we don't build an institution and then
find the needs, we have the need and then we build... and order, as usual,
matters...

so, I suggest that we haven't got very far in our understanding of stuff
like philosophy and the state, because we haven't understood the order
of things... we have needs, and then we use social, political, economic
or philosophy to meet those needs... needs come first....
and then the institutions to meet those needs.....

so given this new understanding, we have education backwards....
we must be educated in our needs and then what institutions are
necessary to fulfil those needs.....

or as Socrates said, the first step is to ''know thyself''
and the second step.. ''the unexamined life isn't worth living''
and from this exploration of needs, we can then arrive at what values
we have and what values should we have? I need love... and what value
support this need of love best? that would be safety/security.. or better yet,
called peace...love is best supported by peace... and safety and security.....

the values we have dictates the state/society/institutions/ and goal of
life...... to hold a value of love has a different set of needs that we can use
to discover/keep love... if we hold to violence, then we have a different society/state
needs, in mind...different institutions and state apparatus is needed if our need
is for violence, not love.....

the state and society and institutions of that state/society are all built
around our needs and how we are going to meet those needs....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:46 pm or as Socrates said, the first step is to ''know thyself''
and the second step.. ''the unexamined life isn't worth living''
and from this exploration of needs, we can then arrive at what values
we have and what values should we have? I need love... and what value
support this need of love best? that would be safety/security.. or better yet,
called peace...love is best supported by peace... and safety and security.....

the values we have dictates the state/society/institutions/ and goal of
life...... to hold a value of love has a different set of needs that we can use
to discover/keep love... if we hold to violence, then we have a different society/state
needs, in mind...different institutions and state apparatus is needed if our need
is for violence, not love.....

the state and society and institutions of that state/society are all built
around our needs and how we are going to meet those needs....

Kropotkin

Well said, K.

And yet, the societies of the world produce an enormous amount of weapons.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:49 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:46 pm or as Socrates said, the first step is to ''know thyself''
and the second step.. ''the unexamined life isn't worth living''
and from this exploration of needs, we can then arrive at what values
we have and what values should we have? I need love... and what value
support this need of love best? that would be safety/security.. or better yet,
called peace...love is best supported by peace... and safety and security.....

the values we have dictates the state/society/institutions/ and goal of
life...... to hold a value of love has a different set of needs that we can use
to discover/keep love... if we hold to violence, then we have a different society/state
needs, in mind...different institutions and state apparatus is needed if our need
is for violence, not love.....

the state and society and institutions of that state/society are all built
around our needs and how we are going to meet those needs....

Kropotkin

Well said, K.

And yet, the societies of the world produce an enormous amount of weapons.

K: and this brings up a point I was eventually going to get to...
is that we, as human beings often mistake the need that is most important...
conservatives tend to portray safety and security issues as the primary
issue of modern society.... whereas liberals do not... and what is the
basis for this difference? that fear drives the conservative into action,
whereas fear does not drive the liberal...the primary, not the only one, just
the primary need of the old is safety and security... and now being 65, I get it...
we no longer can defend ourselves the way we were able too long ago....

when I was younger, I walked some of the toughest streets in both
the U.S and in Europe... today, not a chance...my multiple of issues,
including back surgery, has left me basically incapable of defending myself...
and because of that, I have had to change my approach to how I deal with people...
I am nowhere near as aggressive as I used to be... now, I tend to back away from
issues far quicker than I used to....for me, safety and security issues have become
far more important than they used to be...and that is simply because of my age....
as we age and change environments, our needs change... for me anyway,
instead of building weapons and increasing the military budget,
I would rather build schools and housing for the poor and use those
military resources into helping people out, instead of creating weapons....

the fact of the matter is that a budget of the state, local or national, is
a moral document...and thus we fail any sort of moral test when we prioritize
the military over civilians.. when we put guns before housing.. that is a
moral failure... and one that will be considered inexcusable by future
generations.. and rightly so......

we have prioritize weapons.. in some vain attempt to ''protect''
ourselves.. when in fact, if we engaged in making the world a safer place,
we wouldn't need those weapons and we could instead spend our time, money
and effort aiding those in need.....those who need food, housing, education,
health care.... instead we waste the money that could help meet these
people needs and we spend that money on, well crap...

if we continue to allow our fears to drive our behavior and actions,
we will continue to have our discontented lives... think about how
we educate, train our own children... we teach them to help people
you see this every day when an old person or someone young falls down...
we all race to help them up....or when we practice kindness with
other people... one of the primary traits of people and it is commented
on by, of all people, Heidegger.. is care/concern.. or in German, Sorge..
to be human is to emphasize for and about people.... to care about them...
and that is the opposite of manufacturing weapons...

a person who cannot emphasize with other people, that is a mental
disease... and we can continue to build weapons as long as we don't
care about or sympathize, lack empathy about people... which is in
practical terms, is a mental issue... to have a lack of empathy with
other people, that is called two things, are sociopathy and psychopathy....
to be a psychopath is to lack empathy for other people....
and building weapons to protect one from unknown and unnamed
enemies... is really just a form of sociopathy,
because it means that you value your safety/security before the needs
of others.. the homeless and starving, your safety and security comes
before them... that is a lack of empathy for the homeless and starving...
that is a mental issue.. being soul-sick... and societies and states,
that put weapons before the homeless and starving are soul-sick...
they just don't know it....

Kropotkin