Philosophy Now Forum

in my life, I have read history, economics, philosophy,
science, biographies and autobiographies.....
or stories of people being, doing, acting, thinking....and if
were to understand people, what exactly are we understanding?

who they are, what they did, what they believed in, what they thought,
but that is not the full picture of people.. and here is where I think
misunderstandings occur....why we don't really understand human
beings, yet....

we look to/for the universal of people... what do people have in common?
something that all human beings have? and then we logically, work
our way to the individual, what one person might have or another might
not have... the general to the individual, to the specific...
a time honored scientific and philosophical method....

what is the one thing, the universal that all people have in common?
they have needs.. both biological and psychological needs..
the need for food, water, shelter, education, health care are
common to all, universal needs all human beings have...
and because we are human, we have psychological needs,
the need for love, of belonging, of safety/security, again,
needs all human beings need, as universal human being needs...

but within those universal needs lie individual needs...
and those change over a human beings lifetime...
an example is in my youth, I was an athlete and I did
sports, running for example... and my need for food and water
was far greater than it is today... today I lead a fairly sedentary life...
outside of my walking 5 to 10 thousand steps a day...(at work)
in my youth my biological needs for food and water was greater
than my need for food and water today... I was more active thus
needed more food...this demonstrates that our very needs,
out biological change as our lives change.. I still need food and water,
but far less than I did need at one time...

and the same goes for our psychological needs.. my own
psychological needs too changed as I grow older..
today, I don't search as desperately for love as I once did,
because today, I have the love of my wife of 27 years..
my psychological need of love is fulfilled...
as is my need for safety/security and a sense of belonging..
for the most part, my own psychological needs are being met..
unlike my youth and my young adulthood, where my psychological
needs were not being met...I was driven to find love, to find
happiness, to find a sense of belonging... I didn't have those needs
and it drove my actions and behaviors for decades...

individually, we are driven at different times for different needs....
is that true for us collectively as it is individually?
do we have collective needs that are the same as our individual needs?
we know of times where the society/state has suffered from droughts
and starvation...we lack the food we need to eat, collectively...
as one who once lasted three weeks on a jar of peanut butter,
I can attest that lacking food did impact me on an individual
level, and if the collective/society, lacks food, it can impact
that society collectively... our needs must be met, both individually
and collectively...and as we are collectively impacted by a lack of
our needs being met.. that can cause the collective problems
that human beings quite often engage in....
and so let us take a look at our society/times right now and see
if we can take some measure of our needs and of meeting those needs...

America is the land of plenty.. We have grocery stores stocked
with all the food we can eat and plenty more...for the most
part, we don't have a problem with food shortages..
and materially, we, for the most part, are not hurting for
the lack of material needs... we have cars, houses, apartments,
TV sets, clothing, couches, kitchen tables.. all the material
goods that our modern society has, we own... for most of us,
anyway....

and with those needs being met, we are still, despite our
material needs being met, psychologically we are in destress...
we have millions of people who are apathic, suffering from
what is best called, a malaise, a collective unhappiness,
a discontentment and alienation from both the society and
ourselves....... and yet our material needs are being met...
most of us have food, water, shelter, an education, at least
minimal health care.. meeting our needs and yet,
how do we explain this dichotomy between our physical needs
being met and our psychological needs not being met?

I heard a saying once, you may have heard it too...

"most people lead lives of quiet desperation''

Now I can't say if this is true or not, but it seems to fit
what little evidence we can find out about this....

but if we have full bellies and a picket fence and a dog
named Rex, the so called American dream, why are we,
a large number of people/Americans be so discontented,
so alienated, from the state/society and ourselves?

it is clear that some need or another is not being met...
as our physical needs are being met, again, for the most part...
it seems to suggest that our psychological needs are not being met...

as I have suggested, that we are discontented with something or other....
but we don't seem to have a clue what that something is...
why are we so alienated and discontented with ourselves or
our lives or our state/society? what is the reason for our
''winter of our discontent?''

we cannot ''cure'' ourselves until we fully understand our discontentment...

so, what is the reason for our society's discontentment?

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:13 pm so, what is the reason for our society's discontentment?

Discontent is the engine of progress.

so one might wonder what is the role of government in
''our season of discontentment?'' and what is the role of
the government in meeting our needs, both bodily and
psychologically?

the second point is the role of justice that is one of
the psychological needs of people? in studies done
with dogs, even dogs understand and act in terms
of justice with other dogs..

a connection between the needs of one, a group, or of all,
and the role of government in our lives..
the suggestion is most likely that we use government to help
both our individual and collective, needs being met...

needs like roads, airports, sewage plants, schools, fire departments,
police.... needs that are best met within the collective, not
by individual actions.... a psychological need like safety/security,
is best met by the collective creation of police and fire departments...
and the need for justice, is also best met by collective actions,
not individual actions.. for what is justice for one, may not be
justice for another...our individual need for justice is tempered
by a collective, impartial group dedicated to the concept of
creating justice..

and the role of government goes on, but as I must work, I shall
leave you, for now...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin:

so, what is the reason for our society's discontentment?


Walker: Discontent is the engine of progress.


K: if you actually believe that, make that argument...
that discontentment is the engine of progress...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:14 pm Peter Kropotkin:

so, what is the reason for our society's discontentment?


Walker: Discontent is the engine of progress.


K: if you actually believe that, make that argument...
that discontentment is the engine of progress...

Kropotkin

You forgot the magic word that encourages topical discussions that tactfully advise modifications and passing inspections of your structures rather than a dismantling, but we’ll let it slide this time, except for this. Your use of the word "belief" is way too sloppy a projection for anyone aspiring to philosophy, so wise up, straighten up and fly right, Peter Kropoktin, while you still have time.

The case:
- Paleo Man’s wife is discontent because her feet are always bruised, stuck with a number of thorns, and she has finally realized this is an unnecessary hurting.
- Paleo Man is discontent because achy feet has put his wife into a perpetually foul mood, and because she blames him for her hurts.
- So, Paleo man invents the shoe, and presents her with a gift. Real, objective progress there, not just notions rattling around in his noggin.
- She likes them. Her feet stop hurting. She is happy, he is happy, the world is happy.
- Then, she is soon discontent again because she realizes she is short, and she demands that Paleo Man invent high heels or evolution or something to make her taller. So he does and she is happy again, and he is happy again.
- Soon she has to run fast because of predators and she twists her ankle because of the high heels, which makes her discontent again.
- Paleo Man invents the splint and heals her right and proper so her ankle isn’t crooked, like cousin Org’s wife over in the other cave who can be spotted from a block away because of her limp. Paleo Man and she and all are happy again, although she gets grumpy on rainy days that put a twinge in her bones to make her discontent, so she demands that Paleo Man fix the weather but he says hey Sweetie, there are limits to my awesome, manly powers of invention and progress.
- She swoons and says, club me.

Why are we no longer living in a theocracy?
Discontent
Why are we no longer under the yoke of slavery, monarchy, feudalism... ad infinitem..
Discontent.

It the engine of progress.

It can act in the reverse direction when discontent is mobilised to encourage sectional interests though.
But when the people act in their own interests the result is usually a good one.

Today we see a narrow minded rump of bigots railing against trans, homosexuals, blacks and other minorities. Trump is good at manipulating these elements, but I think he shall fail.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:13 pm so, what is the reason for our society's discontentment?

Kropotkin

Society is just one person at a time.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 2:31 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:14 pm Peter Kropotkin:

so, what is the reason for our society's discontentment?


Walker: Discontent is the engine of progress.


K: if you actually believe that, make that argument...
that discontentment is the engine of progress...

Kropotkin

You forgot the magic word that encourages topical discussions that tactfully advise modifications and passing inspections of your structures rather than a dismantling, but we’ll let it slide this time, except for this. Your use of the word "belief" is way too sloppy a projection for anyone aspiring to philosophy, so wise up, straighten up and fly right, Peter Kropoktin, while you still have time.

The case:
- Paleo Man’s wife is discontent because her feet are always bruised, stuck with a number of thorns, and she has finally realized this is an unnecessary hurting.
- Paleo Man is discontent because achy feet has put his wife into a perpetually foul mood, and because she blames him for her hurts.
- So, Paleo man invents the shoe, and presents her with a gift. Real, objective progress there, not just notions rattling around in his noggin.
- She likes them. Her feet stop hurting. She is happy, he is happy, the world is happy.
- Then, she is soon discontent again because she realizes she is short, and she demands that Paleo Man invent high heels or evolution or something to make her taller. So he does and she is happy again, and he is happy again.
- Soon she has to run fast because of predators and she twists her ankle because of the high heels, which makes her discontent again.
- Paleo Man invents the splint and heals her right and proper so her ankle isn’t crooked, like cousin Org’s wife over in the other cave who can be spotted from a block away because of her limp. Paleo Man and she and all are happy again, although she gets grumpy on rainy days that put a twinge in her bones to make her discontent, so she demands that Paleo Man fix the weather but he says hey Sweetie, there are limits to my awesome, manly powers of invention and progress.
- She swoons and says, club me.

K: and yet today, we have all the material goods that anyone could
need or want, enough material goods to make all other society/states/
civilizations that ever were, jealous as hell with the amount of material goods
we have and yet, and yet, we have massive discontentment in our society,
state? and the proof for this lies in our MAGA party.. 50 million Americans
ready to tear it all down to make IQ45 president..

I read somewhere that the discontentment level in America,
those who believe that we are treading the right direction as
a country is less than 50% and that those who think we are
trending the wrong direction is over 50% of the population
of America... and that despite the vast material wealth of
America.. your argument is dependent on material wealth..
shoes and high heels are material goods.. trying to fulfill
our ''winter of discontent'' with goods, material goods....
is a failure given our discontented society/state...

As Socrates pointed out centuries ago and existentialist have
been pointing out for over a century, that human existence,
happy or not, is not dependent on material goods or even wealth...
your argument that contentment derives from the possession of
material goods/possessions, would suggest that we are/ought to
be contented due to our vast material possessions...and yet,
we are not...

and we can go two ways about this.. either we are discontented
because we lack some material possession, and we need more to
become contented, or, and this is much more likely,
getting more and more materials possessions doesn't add to
our happiness, our contentment...it might even lead to greater
and greater discontentment.... or as I like to think of it,
adding zero to zero still leads to zero...

so let us ''assume'' that material possessions does not lead to
contentment... as I suspect is true, now what?

inside of ourselves, perhaps what we might call the soul, lies
our ''winter of our discontent'' and what are we to do about
this inner discontentment?

the first stop, as always, is to follow Socrates...
and is taken with this: ''Know thyself''..
and the second is, ''the unexamined life isn't worth living''

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:36 pm
so let us ''assume'' that material possessions does not lead to
contentment... as I suspect is true, now what?

Kropotkin

Contentment is to be at peace with whatever is, even if whatever is, is the need to change. Therefore, your question is how to achieve peace of mind under all conditions. Correct?

If so, change the assumption that thinking is the pathway for peace of mind. Discover through experience rather than thought the nature of unconditional peace of mind.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:40 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:36 pm
so let us ''assume'' that material possessions does not lead to
contentment... as I suspect is true, now what?

Kropotkin

Contentment is to be at peace with whatever is, even if whatever is, is the need to change. Therefore, your question is how to achieve peace of mind under all conditions. Correct?

If so, change the assumption that thinking is the pathway for peace of mind. Discover through experience rather than thought the nature of unconditional peace of mind.

K: not necessarily is the goal, contentment...
the problem we have is that we have no sense of what goal we should
be striving for.... that the declaration of Independence is flat out wrong
in its statement,

...with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty
and ''THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS'''...

I don't believe that the goal of human existence is the pursuit of
happiness...and it certainly isn't the pursuit of what I have called
the ''trinkets of existence''.. money, power, fame, material possession,
and titles... the normal things that people pursue... for they are false
and misleading...and much of the cause of discontentment in America...
we are chasing the wrong goals... and that is, as much as anything,
causing our ''winter of discontentment''

as much as anything, I have called for a widespread, both personal
and collective ''reevaluation of values'' in which we reevaluate what
we believe to be right and worth pursuing....and it must be done
honestly.... much of what is our current failure stems from
our inability to be honest and truthful, both to other, the state
and to ourselves.... I suspect that much our discontentment stems
from our inability to tell the truth...to anybody.... especially ourselves...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:13 pm in my life, I have read history, economics, philosophy,
science, biographies and autobiographies.....
or stories of people being, doing, acting, thinking....and if
were to understand people, what exactly are we understanding?

who they are, what they did, what they believed in, what they thought,
but that is not the full picture of people.. and here is where I think
misunderstandings occur....why we don't really understand human
beings, yet....

But, 'we' do really understand 'you' human beings, already. Although obviously 'you' do not really understand human beings, 'yet', when this is being written.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:13 pm we look to/for the universal of people... what do people have in common?
something that all human beings have? and then we logically, work
our way to the individual, what one person might have or another might
not have... the general to the individual, to the specific...
a time honored scientific and philosophical method....

what is the one thing, the universal that all people have in common?
they have needs.. both biological and psychological needs..
the need for food, water, shelter, education, health care are
common to all, universal needs all human beings have...
and because we are human, we have psychological needs,
the need for love, of belonging, of safety/security, again,
needs all human beings need, as universal human being needs...

but within those universal needs lie individual needs...
and those change over a human beings lifetime...
an example is in my youth, I was an athlete and I did
sports, running for example... and my need for food and water
was far greater than it is today... today I lead a fairly sedentary life...
outside of my walking 5 to 10 thousand steps a day...(at work)
in my youth my biological needs for food and water was greater
than my need for food and water today... I was more active thus
needed more food...this demonstrates that our very needs,
out biological change as our lives change.. I still need food and water,
but far less than I did need at one time...

and the same goes for our psychological needs.. my own
psychological needs too changed as I grow older..
today, I don't search as desperately for love as I once did,
because today, I have the love of my wife of 27 years..
my psychological need of love is fulfilled...
as is my need for safety/security and a sense of belonging..
for the most part, my own psychological needs are being met..
unlike my youth and my young adulthood, where my psychological
needs were not being met...I was driven to find love, to find
happiness, to find a sense of belonging... I didn't have those needs
and it drove my actions and behaviors for decades...

individually, we are driven at different times for different needs....
is that true for us collectively as it is individually?
do we have collective needs that are the same as our individual needs?
we know of times where the society/state has suffered from droughts
and starvation...we lack the food we need to eat, collectively...
as one who once lasted three weeks on a jar of peanut butter,
I can attest that lacking food did impact me on an individual
level, and if the collective/society, lacks food, it can impact
that society collectively... our needs must be met, both individually
and collectively...and as we are collectively impacted by a lack of
our needs being met.. that can cause the collective problems
that human beings quite often engage in....
and so let us take a look at our society/times right now and see
if we can take some measure of our needs and of meeting those needs...

America is the land of plenty.. We have grocery stores stocked
with all the food we can eat and plenty more...for the most
part, we don't have a problem with food shortages..
and materially, we, for the most part, are not hurting for
the lack of material needs... we have cars, houses, apartments,
TV sets, clothing, couches, kitchen tables.. all the material
goods that our modern society has, we own... for most of us,
anyway....

and with those needs being met, we are still, despite our
material needs being met, psychologically we are in destress...
we have millions of people who are apathic, suffering from
what is best called, a malaise, a collective unhappiness,
a discontentment and alienation from both the society and
ourselves....... and yet our material needs are being met...
most of us have food, water, shelter, an education, at least
minimal health care.. meeting our needs and yet,
how do we explain this dichotomy between our physical needs
being met and our psychological needs not being met?

I heard a saying once, you may have heard it too...

"most people lead lives of quiet desperation''

Now I can't say if this is true or not, but it seems to fit
what little evidence we can find out about this....

but if we have full bellies and a picket fence and a dog
named Rex, the so called American dream, why are we,
a large number of people/Americans be so discontented,
so alienated, from the state/society and ourselves?

it is clear that some need or another is not being met...
as our physical needs are being met, again, for the most part...
it seems to suggest that our psychological needs are not being met...

as I have suggested, that we are discontented with something or other....
but we don't seem to have a clue what that something is...
why are we so alienated and discontented with ourselves or
our lives or our state/society? what is the reason for our
''winter of our discontent?''

we cannot ''cure'' ourselves until we fully understand our discontentment...

so, what is the reason for our society's discontentment?

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:16 pm

That's interesting. How do you think (not believe) one discovers through experience rather than thought the nature of unconditional peace of mind?

I've found that a good way to understand within the limitations of existence here, as words, is to suppose an answer that you don't know, then seek verification to test the hypothesis of your supposition. That way, what you realize doesn't go away when you start chasing the next shiny thing.