Philosophy Now Forum

and what of the ''modern times?''

I have linked this time period with Ancient Rome..
in which the old values/beliefs and ism's, are slipping? I am not
sure that is the right word, have far less value and faith than
they used to have....

for American's, one such value is the militaristic value that has
dominated America...we hold the military and those who exist
within the military as "Hero's'' those who have sacrificed for us...
it is an odd fact about America... that within our history,
we have spent over 95% of American history at war.....
out of our 246 years, less than 20 were at peace...
try to think of years that we didn't have some sort of war...My youth was
dominated with Vietnam and my mother youth was dominated by
WW2... and we just fought, pointlessly I might add, 20 years in Iraq
and Afghanistan....

America's default position is to, go to war...and Rome was constantly
engaged in some war somewhere in Europe or the Middle East....
if one were to work out the numbers of years Ancient Rome was engaged
in wars, I'll be willing to bet that Rome spent over 90% of her history
at war...like us......but it is not just about the number of years being
at war, it is also the loss of belief in the ism's and ideologies
of the past, both Roman and American...

A segment of our population is begging for a dictatorship...
one lead by IQ45... ignoring the fact that part of what made
America great is its allegiance/devotion to democracy...
and one of the stories of America is how democracy was spread
from just white property-owning males to women and blacks
and the young... and yet today, the forces of repression, conservatives,
are trying to take away the right to vote from blacks and people of color...
this type of action, removing the right to vote, violates the very
principles of democracy... but the right wing has no love of democracy...
and in doing so, they violated the very principles of America...that
the right to vote is a key component of being an American...take
away that right to vote, what is the point of being an American?

One of the other rights under attack is the right to be you...
in other words, to pray to whomever you wanted to pray to,
one of the selling points of coming to America was that you
could escape the various restrictions of other lands..
people came to America with the understanding that they
could be who they were, not to just follow the party line
of the native state...the freedom to act, pray and be who
you were, was part of the major selling points of America....
you had freedom... and no one could take away that freedom...
you could love who you wanted to love... Walt Whitman was
gay, and pretty much everyone knew it... and he was allowed
to live his life as he wanted to.... that type of freedom
is part of what made/makes America great... but once again,
look at the forces of negativity.... attacking gays and trans people..
and attacking drag shows... I spent my childhood watching
men in drag... it was on TV all the time... I believe I even saw
John Wayne in on variety show in drag...the movie, ''Some like it Hot"
was about men wearing dresses... Milton Berle was a top rated TV show
in the 50's, and ''Uncle Milti'' wore dresses all the time in his show...

the ism's and ideologies of yesterday that made America great, is
being attacked today as ''immoral'' or ''unAmerican''.....in some attempt
to turn the clock back to some reality that didn't even exists...
That Ronald Raygun, tried to turn America back into some 50's
reality, was based on a 50's reality that didn't even exists..
the past that conservatives try to turn America into doesn't even exist
outside of their own minds.. and no where else...

So, Kropotkin, what exactly are you saying/asking for?

that if we were to take an honest look at America today,
we would see that we have taken steps backwards, not forward
in America today.. Conservatives are trying to take America into
a past that never existed... look at their motto...
MAGA.... and what part of America are they looking at, that was
great? is making America great again about returning to slavery or
or Jim Crow laws or where we engaged in the genocide of the
American Indian? Or the America that women were the property of men,
Women were not allowed their own separate bank accounts until 1974,
nor were they allowed credit cards...unless it was cosigned by a man...
is that the ''greatest'' that the MAGA crowd is looking for?

I think what is missing is an honest understanding of what America is,
and what it was and what it could be.... we are so involved in our
fights over say, drag shows or abortions, that we miss an overall
understanding of where America was, where it is and where
it is going...

we lack the big picture of who we are and where we can be....
we have no sense of where we have been as Americans, and
we have no sense of where we might be, or want to go into
the future..... who talks about the future? certainly not
IQ45 or the MAGA party, they are all about returning America
to greatness, but not by going forward.. by going backwards...

indeed, what future should we try to go toward? what future
is actually feasible and worth going to? Where should we go?
no one talks about that or references that... the past is done,
so, we can go only one of two directions, either we stay in the present,
or we travel toward the future... and who even says, what is our possible future?

so, look up from your keyboard and ask yourself, what type of future
do I want to see, collectively... for we human beings are not individual
beings, we are collective beings... and we can only survive as collective
being, within a group, society, state or civilization...

we have become individual, discrete atoms.. instead of being within
a whole, we are thinking in terms of our own values and beliefs, instead
of what we should be doing, which is thinking in terms of us,
collectively, within a group, state, society or a civilization...
not what does the future hold for me, but what does the future
hold for us?

So, what does the future hold for us?

Kropotkin

I have limited time and so..

One of the questions of why we are, individually, so alienated
and disconnected from both the state and other individuals is that
we are, have been turned into, discrete, individual atoms..
and that is the human being way.... we are better and more human
within a group, society, state and/or a civilization....

the collective human beings are far better off instead of the individual
human being because we become human being as part of a group,
a state, a society or civilization...the reasons that people are so fucked
up right now is that we have lost touch with that which makes us
human, other people in groups Etc, Etc....

listen to commercials and tv and radio... it always describes us
individually, not collectively... and until we regain this lost
connection with others in groups, or society or a state or civilization,
we will continue to be alienated and disconnected from each other
and in fact, alienated and disconnected from ourselves.. because
we are social beings...we are at our best when we are connected
to others... and the MAGA crowd, they advocate this individualism,
where liberals advocate us together... and that is why MAGA is a failure...
it emphasizes the wrong thing, individuals instead of humans being
together...

Kropotkin

Why in your other threads when you are shown and/or proved to be Wrong in some of your claims, you just ignore 'that', and then start and express 'just another viewpoint'?

Why not stay with your other viewpoint, standing behind them, and backing them up and supporting them, or just acknowledge and admit where, how, why, when, and what exactly was False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect with your past viewpoints?

In other words, Why should 'we' start regarding more of your 'just more viewpoints', when so many of your past viewpoints are not necessarily that easy to follow, and/or can be so easily and simply just refuted anyway?

If you are not going to stay around and prove your viewpoint is True, or if you are not even going to acknowledge when your viewpoint has been proved not True, then why should 'we' bother here?

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 11:52 pm Why in your other threads when you are shown and/or proved to be Wrong in some of your claims, you just ignore 'that', and then start and express 'just another viewpoint'?

Why not stay with your other viewpoint, standing behind them, and backing them up and supporting them, or just acknowledge and admit where, how, why, when, and what exactly was False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect with your past viewpoints?

In other words, Why should 'we' start regarding more of your 'just more viewpoints', when so many of your past viewpoints are not necessarily that easy to follow, and/or can be so easily and simply just refuted anyway?

If you are not going to stay around and prove your viewpoint is True, or if you are not even going to acknowledge when your viewpoint has been proved not True, then why should 'we' bother here?

K: so, don't bother....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 5:09 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 11:52 pm Why in your other threads when you are shown and/or proved to be Wrong in some of your claims, you just ignore 'that', and then start and express 'just another viewpoint'?

Why not stay with your other viewpoint, standing behind them, and backing them up and supporting them, or just acknowledge and admit where, how, why, when, and what exactly was False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect with your past viewpoints?

In other words, Why should 'we' start regarding more of your 'just more viewpoints', when so many of your past viewpoints are not necessarily that easy to follow, and/or can be so easily and simply just refuted anyway?

If you are not going to stay around and prove your viewpoint is True, or if you are not even going to acknowledge when your viewpoint has been proved not True, then why should 'we' bother here?

K: so, don't bother....

Kropotkin

As can be clearly seen, I have not bothered with your 'just another viewpoint' here, at all.

Also, noted is that you did not bother actually answering any of the four questions I posed, and asked you here for clarity, also.

the bottom line message of being human is that we
are social creatures... whether or not we like it, we
are in need of each other.... and therein lies the point...
that we try to find meaning and a purpose within those ism's
and ideologies of our... let us take communism for example...

communism was for a better part of a century, a large vital
belief system that did something that capitalism does not do,
and that is lay out a connection point for human beings....
we are connected by being workers and at one point,
we will all become part of the worker state... that vision of
a worker state became the connection point...where everyone
was free and had ownership of our means of production...
unlike capitalism, in communism, our effort, our work wasn't
siphoned off by the owners in the form of profits... we worked
and they profited...that part of communism is still true....
we work and they profit from that effort, that work.... and on
that point, we connected together.. we became one against the owners
of the means of production... the society and state were just tools
owned by the owners to help them to maintain profits..
and this too is true today....

and where did it fail? in that the connection point of being workers,
no longer sufficed... think of the successful isms of the last 200 years...
nationalism for example... that particular ism still holds its power
to connect... people will join parties and even become Nazi's due to
the power of nationalism...which is just another method of connection
of individual people to other people... one of the basic needs of all human
beings is this need to belong... it is just as fundamental need as breathing
and safety/security in human beings...and these isms of our, nationalism,
communism, Nazism, Catholicism, Buddhism, all derive their strength
from people joining those particular isms.... those isms become
connection points for people...and therein lies their power.. to
connect individual human beings into a collective..
into a group... into a state and a society......

and today, what ism is connecting people together?
we can clearly see how nationalism is driving people apart
and how Nazism is doing the same...and capitalism is dehumanizing
and destroying people's lives.. and what about communism?
it has much right about it...but where it had problems was in the fact
that individual human beings are dehumanized and denied as human beings,
which is nihilism... the system, the goal of a worker state was also
capable of destroying individual lives to the betterment of the worker state...
which is also the same problem with capitalism... the individual workers
only value is to make the worker state or to make profits... at all costs..
the individual was sacrificed to the betterment of the worker state/search
for profits.....in communism, as is in capitalism, the individual is denied
and dehumanized for the profit of the ism... capitalism and communism
fail for the exact same reason....for its willingness to sacrifice individuals
for the greater cause....and this is true of Catholicism... the only thing
that counts/matters is the coming apocalypse... where gods will is brought
down to earth.. and the individual doesn't matter at all....individuals
are easily sacrificed to bring about the end times...
and this is true of the isms and ideologies of the 20th century...
the individual is sacrificed to bring about the desired goal of
the ism in question....

and I say differently... that human beings have value, just because
they are a human being and human beings shouldn't be sacrificed at
the alter of any ism, be it communism or capitalism or nationalism or
Nazism or any other ism/ideology... but we can connect in ways
that overcome the low bar of human sacrifice... we can connect
within a democracy and we can connect in economically by
socialism and we can connect judicially, that all human beings
are treated equally, with justice....

for the practice of justice/equality can unite human beings into
a connection...and that was one of the strengths of our early
democracy... that it promised that justice/equality were
practiced by the state/the society.. that all men are born, treated
and died within justice and equality... that is a very strong connection
point of our early democracy...we no longer practice justice as equality,
as we should, and thus we have a two-track economic, political,
social and legal system... we no longer practice justice as equality...
and that is one way we have become discrete, individual atoms....
with no connection to each other...

the practice of equality is one of the key practices of connection
we have as human beings... if we are treated equally, we are treated
as one... and we are connected.. by that equality.... and that is, in part,
the path into becoming human... that we become connected as human
beings, as one, and not alienated or disconnected from each other
or even ourselves...turned into discrete, individual atoms...
by our isms and ideologies...like capitalism...

the path into the future requires us to reconnect as human beings....
as promised by the practice of justice and equality...and denied by
the isms of capitalism and communism....

Kropotkin

one of the factors of being human is the factors that
lay outside of our control.... much of what happens,
happens beyond any of our control...a CEO one day wakes
up and decides that he needs a 5th vacation home, and decides
to release part of his workforce... and my job goes by by....
I am diminished by his greed... the forces of the market place
as capitalism calls it... we are dominated by the law of supply
and demand... that ''impartially'' demands that we lose our job...
due to lower demand of goods...... and it is said, nothing personal...
but therein lies the problem... we dehumanized and negates people
within this ''nothing personal'' mantra.... all kinds of actions can be
justified within this ''nothing personal'' statement....
with a bit of talent, we can even justify the Holocaust with
the phrase, ''nothing personal''......

and we can justify these ''nothing personal'' mantra by the ''movements''
of history... the ebb and flow of history as portrayed by capitalism
and communism and nationalism...

this idea that millions of people can lose their job, their livelihood,
by impersonal forces that doesn't even know they exist... ''nothing personal''
is what is wrong with America today... it should be personal... it should be
a matter that we just can't avoid thinking about because its ''nothing personal''
actions matter and we should hold those people accountable for actions
taken... even if, even if it is the impersonal market forces, the law of
supply and demand that creates this ''nothing personal'' belief....
that we can hide our actions behind... the words ''nothing personal''
implies that the CEO had no choice, that market forces requires him
to lay off thousands... but that is a lie designed to protect the guilty...
when one lays off thousands due to ''market forces'' the law of supply
and demand.. there is no accountability for their actions....
that they had no choice..... but our primary understanding of what
it means to be human is through choice... if we have no choice, are we
human? or are we animal? for animals have no choice... instincts guides
their every action... but in being human, we rise above our instincts,
we can use reason, logic, rationality to make decisions...animals cannot....
we have choice... and that is what makes us human....
to say, I had no choice but to lay off thousands of workers due
to market forces is to say, I am not human, and I did what I did
because I am an animal...because I had no choice...
and in laying off thousands with the forces of the marketplace, is to give
priority to profits, to money, and not to people.... because with money/profits
we can easily say, ''nothing personal'' because profits/money are not human...
but they are our guiding principle.. money/profits before human beings...
and that nihilism, that nihilism can easily say, ''nothing personal''
because according to capitalism, nothing, even human beings, comes
before profits..

but hay, ''nothing personal''

Kropotkin

so, we have laid out some values which dominates
America, even today... that of the militaristic value
and that of the ''nothing personal'' value...people being sacrificed to
ideals and ism, like nationalism and capitalism....

is that what it means to be human? to be sacrificed on the
grounds of isms and ideologies... to be sacrificed as human beings
because we have less value than the ism in question?
to be sacrificed in the name of America or be sacrificed in the name
of the almighty dollar?

is that what it means to be human?

Kropotkin