Philosophy Now Forum

and what exactly is philosophy? it is an attempt to make sense
of our experiences... we have both individual and collective experiences....
we are one and we are part of a group.....how do we make sense of
those experiences.... that making sense is philosophy....

as I am old, I recall in my childhood, eating dinner in the family room
and watching the news.. that was a thing as a kid... and watching
Walter Cronkite, in his very deep voice, announcing that 153 Americans
were kill this week in Vietnam and an additional 300 were injured...
and I recall my mom saying it was a pretty good week with so few soldiers being
killed...and we watched footage from Vietnam... of entire villages being
wiped out by bombers flying overhead.... and the body bags... every
week, we saw body bags being flown back to the states....
it was a war that we watched during dinner time.. and quite often, live...

the next great event was Watergate... you can't imagine the damaging effect
of Watergate on the American mind....as much as Vietnam, it changed the way
we looked at government.... and the people who represented us in Washington....

as many here has been seriously impacted by 9/11, we were impacted by
Vietnam and Watergate... but for me personally, on 9/11, I was 42 years old....
9/11 was a generational impact, but not for me... I was already old enough that
its impact was minimal ...but for many, it was a generational event... not for me....
and the impact for many, was to drive many Americans to fear.... the real rise
of the conservative movement was 9/11.... it drove many to become afraid,
it led to the widespread fear that we see in America today...
my childhood events, Vietnam and Watergate, I was 15 when Nixon
resigned... have lead me to a different mind set, because of my
different experiences..... I don't have the fear that marks many in
the younger generation....and the fear that many my age have....

we can say that because of events like Vietnam, Watergate, and 9/11,
we have been impacted both individually and collectively....
and so, the question becomes, how has those events impacted us
and what does that say for us going forward?

and that is philosophy.... making sense of experiences.... both
individually and collectively....
In a very real sense, I am who I am because of my experiences,
with the impact that Vietnam and Watergate had on my life....

and in 1980, with the election of Raygun, I was radicalized...
I had seen what he had done to California and didn't want
that to happen to the nation.. (to a great extent, that is
exactly what did happen... which is why for me, Raygun is one
of the 5 worst presidents of all time.. many of the problems we face
today, were created by his actions back then) but my own individual
thinking about Raygun is different than the collective thinking...
but truth be told, we still haven't come to grips with any of it...
we still haven't emotionally, psychologically, mentally or philosophically,
come to grips with Vietnam or Watergate, Raygun or 9/11........
and I mean that within a collective coming to understand what those
events have meant to us.... we might know them individually,
but not collectively....

as a kid, I had a lot of stiches... I wasn't afraid of anything, and so, I got
hurt a lot... one of the things to realize about getting hurt, either physically
or emotionally or psychologically, it leaves scars... and we often fail
to see that the scars that we don't see, inside of us, leave the greatest
damage...my emotional scars have followed me my whole life...
and have caused more problems for me, than my considerable
physical damage has.....

and all of this needs to be accounted for in our/my philosophy....
my entire childhood was dominated by violence of all sorts...
the assassination of JFK, the violence of Vietnam, the assassination
of MLK, and of RFK.... and the ongoing street violence from civil rights
actions to protest of the war... in 1968, we lived outside of Chicago,
my father was a newspaper man... during the 1968 Democratic convention,
he would come home with blood on his shirt from the violence downtown...

and how do I turn all of this into an individual and/or collective
philosophy?

we take philosophy and tie it up into set strict branches...
Metaphysics, logic, epistemology, ethics, Aesthetics, political science,
to name a few branches... and how do I get my own individual experiences,
to fit into these fairly strict branches of philosophy?

and ask yourself, how do you connect your own experiences into
one of those branches of philosophy?

this is part of the failure of philosophy... that we have disconnected it from
our own personal experiences.... it is not enough to think philosophy is
about epistemology, when it really should be how do we connect our
own experiences into a meaningful, profound philosophy?
when those branches of philosophy can't adapt enough to fit my own
experiences into it.....we have some choices... we can
reject the entire project of philosophy as being woefully inadequate
for our purposes because those branches of philosophy, don't match
up with my own experiences.... how do I connect up my experience with
Vietnam with epistemology, or with logic or Aesthetics?
philosophy as constituted, is too narrow... it cannot help me
understand the impact of Vietnam or Watergate because how
do those events fit into epistemology or logic or Aesthetics?
as so constituted, philosophy is a piss poor way to understand
my own experiences.... and that is the value of existentialism..
at least it attempted to expand the tools we have to explain
and understand our own experiences.... but that wasn't enough...
we need more, broader tools to explain what those experiences
mean to us..... and so, we can try to explain our experiences with
Vietnam or Watergate with a look at history or political science or
even psychologically.... philosophy has failed to explain our
experiences, either individually or collectively because
philosophy is too small, to narrow to properly explain such
large events or experiences like Vietnam or Watergate or even
9/11...... and so, what is the next step for philosophy?

I can't say, but I hope it becomes more inclusive toward events
and experiences....

Kropotkin

let us put ourselves into the lives of those who lived before us....

let us say, 1592, York England... I am an average citizen, Joe blow...
I have my individual experiences... which we all have... of being born,
of some minor education.. unless I am the son of a wealthy man, then
perhaps I will be better educated, but not likely....of getting married
and having children, of having some sort of job, badly bad and overwork
job...and has that ever changed?

what world events will impact me? the first outbreak of the 1592/93
London plagues is observed... the first performance of Shakespeare's
play, Richard 3... in the battle of Flores, a ship was captured, the
Madre de Deus....but do any of these events impact me in York during
that time?

I have no need for a collective philosophy because events that are collective
rarely ever reach me..... I can work out my own individual philosophy
because that is all I will ever need.... but we cannot do that today....
events a world away can impact us, all of us, in a blink of an eye.....
Vietnam is thousands of miles away, and yet, it impacted my life in
a myriad of ways... Watergate, was 1000 miles away from me, and yet
its impact still haunts me today... we are impacted every day by
events that happen very, very far away in ways that never used to
happen....

so, how do I turn collective events like Vietnam and Watergate into
personal, individual philosophy?

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:40 pm and what exactly is philosophy? it is an attempt to make sense
of our experiences... we have both individual and collective experiences....
we are one and we are part of a group.....how do we make sense of
those experiences.... that making sense is philosophy....

There is a need to align the OP to the below;

1. Philosophy is the most fundamental element of the primal force of a Will-To-Live [as least till the inevitable].
2. In this sense, philosophy is rightly the seeking [love] of Wisdom to live [to know, to act, with hope] optimally.
3. It is in 2 that we need to make sense [with critical thinking and rationality] of experiences from the first-person [individuals] and the collective-of-subjects.

in thinking this morning, I wonder why if we have become so
sophisticated and scientific, that we don't have a better understanding of
who we are.....the question I keep on asking is, what does it mean to
be human? and no one seems to know, (or care)...

perhaps I should rephrase my question into... What is the ''human condition"

are we, as the Catholics say, guilty of crimes by simply being born?
is suffering the human condition, as the Buddhist say?
are we as the religious say, only existing as part of god's grand scheme,
and being negated in only having a role in god's plan....

and therein lays much of the modern day understanding of what is
the human condition? much of being is negated, dehumanized,
right now, nihilism is the human condition....

Nihilism: the negation and dehumanization of human beings
and their values.....

the perfect way to understand nihilism... is to think how big business
and right wing fanatics, put god/money before human beings...
we no longer pray to that all mighty being in the sky, we pray
to bills in our wallets... we have been devalued in the course of
our seeking out wealth/profits... this is a nihilistic age because
we no longer put human beings/life first.... we put money first..
everything is done in regard to how much money it might cost...
ask a GOP/MAGA type should money go to entitlement programs,
and they will say, why? that hard earn money should stay in our
pockets.... thus putting money ahead of people's lives...
any commentary about how the American taxpayer is just a commentary
about our current nihilism...

of course we don't have any vision about what it means to be human,
because we have devalued human beings to the point of
being of no consequence....if god has human being only value
in being able to worship god forever, we don't matter,
and if we are devalued in terms of money before human beings,
we don't matter....and if systems like capitalism and communism,
put their values ahead of human beings, as they do, then we don't
matter....recall that neither capitalism or communism
put human beings first... in both systems, the human being
is and can easily be sacrificed to their almighty values...
communism to the materialistic dialectic... the might movement of
history toward being a classless society, asked for, no, demands,
the average worker be sacrificed for the greater good in the exact
same way capitalism demands its workers to sacrifice for the greater
good, for profits... as does a country demands it citizens to sacrifice for
the greater good of the country.. recall the great ''respect'' we give soldiers
and first responders... for their great sacrifice.... devaluing human
beings... this time not for money but for state......

our current systems, in both political and economic, demand
the sacrifice of people to make the system work.... but is the reverse
true? will the system ever sacrifice for us? nah... that's not going to
happen...

part of the modern disconnect and alienation we moderns feel,
comes from the fact that we are simply tools to be sacrificed
for the betterment of the government/society/god/corporations....

history.. money... glory... fame.. is made on the bones of our
sacrifice to the ''system'', to the ''ism'' currently in place....

in the modern day world, we all simply meant to be the victim,
to be sacrificed to the goals of the state/society/corporation/
religion....

and what if, what if we declare that we will not play the victim anymore?
then we are called traitors, greedy, selfish, Liberals, nihilist....

and what is education? simply a means of training children into
being willing to sacrifice for the ''betterment'' of the state...otherwise
they are called.. traitors, greedy... etc, etc....

the values one is to adapt, is the values of the society/the
state-religion/ the state itself....not any sort of personal values,
but collective values that negate and dehumanizes one...
we can hold collective values that do not dehumanized us or
devalues us... values that puts the human being first....

and what values might those be??????

glad you asked....

non-nihilistic values are love, peace, charity, knowledge,
honor, hope, wisdom... positive values that give life meaning....
pursing the trinkets of existence doesn't give one any sort of
meaning or purpose... but those values listed above, they do give
life meaning and purpose...but those above listed values,
they don't create wealth or power to others.. thus they are
negated.... and we learn that through education.....

think about the values that you hold and the values
that we should hold as a state or society and why those values,
and not others....

Kropotkin

how values get changed... is exhibited by the origin story
Catholicism....

we have Jesus, who has declared himself to be Jew....
"not to destroy the law, but to strengthen it''' I believe
is the correct quote...and Judaism as being considered to
be the law or following the law... that goes way back into
Jewish history....

we have Jesus, a law abiding Jew, declaring that Love is the answer....
this idea of love is a value to be followed, not part of any state or ism,
but as a value to be followed...but Paul and all of those who followed,
proclaimed that what is to be followed, isn't the value, in this case, love,
but the thing to be followed is the ism, the institution, the 'CHURCH''
not the value...

and we can see this occurring a lot in the history of institutions
and isms.....for example, what was the original conflict between
Great Britan, and colonial America...

this is sum up in their original slogan...

''NO taxation without representation"

it wasn't the taxation part that riled them up, it was the lack
of representation that allowed the taxation that got their panties
in a bunch.... one of the key questions for colonial America was
the representation part....the entire question of slaves being 3/5 a
person, comes down from this question of representation...

we see this over and over again, where an original idea, like
love or representation, or freedom, gets twisted into a larger
ism or ideology or even a state...we can see this with what
happened between the original idea of Marx, and the rise of
the Soviet Union, as a state.... we get Marx, who goal was
to discover a better means of creating a human being...
his agenda, was basically what unions are fighting for,
better wages, safer workplace, representation in management,
overtime rules.. the exact same thing that unions have been
fighting for, for over a hundred years...(this was, for Marx, mostly in his
decades long job as a newspaper reporter, the longest career he had)

we get an idea and build a entire ism or ideology or state about it....
and in the mean while losing that idea into other aspects of the ism
or state's concern...

we have founded America, among other idea's, of patriotism...
but that original idea of patriotism, has become a societal idea
that for patriotism to work, it means we must sacrifice ourselves...
just as capitalism demands that we sacrifice ourselves for the
all mighty dollar....the idea of capitalism was from the act of
freedom.. to be free to hold what job you want and buy
what you want to buy, or not to buy, as the case maybe...
but capitalism has become a way of life where its members,
(and not voluntary members) are required to sacrifice for
the good of the company, for the profits the company does/will
make.... from the original idea of having freedom, to our modern
capitalism which has no freedom, just sacrifice...

a another example of a single value being turned into an entire ism or
state.....

instead let us rethink this idea of turning a value into an ideology or ism,
with taking a value, say love, and living by that value, with no
ism or ideology being created....that would be a radical concept....
literally.. a radical concept....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:40 pm and what exactly is philosophy? it is an attempt to make sense
of our experiences...

Is this ANSWER TO 'your' QUESTION here, TO 'you', TO some, or TO EVERY one?

Also, just so 'you' become Truly AWARE, what 'philosophy' is, TO 'me', is NOT what 'you' SAY and CLAIM here.

What, EXACTLY, is 'philosophy', TO 'me', IS VERY, VERY DIFFERENT FROM what 'you' SAY and CLAIM 'philosophy', EXACTLY, IS here.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:40 pm we have both individual and collective experiences....
we are one and we are part of a group.....how do we make sense of
those experiences.... that making sense is philosophy....

as I am old, I recall in my childhood, eating dinner in the family room
and watching the news.. that was a thing as a kid... and watching
Walter Cronkite, in his very deep voice, announcing that 153 Americans
were kill this week in Vietnam and an additional 300 were injured...
and I recall my mom saying it was a pretty good week with so few soldiers being
killed...and we watched footage from Vietnam... of entire villages being
wiped out by bombers flying overhead.... and the body bags... every
week, we saw body bags being flown back to the states....
it was a war that we watched during dinner time.. and quite often, live...

the next great event was Watergate... you can't imagine the damaging effect
of Watergate on the American mind....as much as Vietnam, it changed the way
we looked at government.... and the people who represented us in Washington....

as many here has been seriously impacted by 9/11, we were impacted by
Vietnam and Watergate... but for me personally, on 9/11, I was 42 years old....
9/11 was a generational impact, but not for me... I was already old enough that
its impact was minimal ...but for many, it was a generational event... not for me....
and the impact for many, was to drive many Americans to fear.... the real rise
of the conservative movement was 9/11.... it drove many to become afraid,
it led to the widespread fear that we see in America today...
my childhood events, Vietnam and Watergate, I was 15 when Nixon
resigned... have lead me to a different mind set, because of my
different experiences..... I don't have the fear that marks many in
the younger generation....and the fear that many my age have....

we can say that because of events like Vietnam, Watergate, and 9/11,
we have been impacted both individually and collectively....
and so, the question becomes, how has those events impacted us
and what does that say for us going forward?

and that is philosophy.... making sense of experiences.... both
individually and collectively....
In a very real sense, I am who I am because of my experiences,
with the impact that Vietnam and Watergate had on my life....

and in 1980, with the election of Raygun, I was radicalized...
I had seen what he had done to California and didn't want
that to happen to the nation.. (to a great extent, that is
exactly what did happen... which is why for me, Raygun is one
of the 5 worst presidents of all time.. many of the problems we face
today, were created by his actions back then) but my own individual
thinking about Raygun is different than the collective thinking...
but truth be told, we still haven't come to grips with any of it...
we still haven't emotionally, psychologically, mentally or philosophically,
come to grips with Vietnam or Watergate, Raygun or 9/11........
and I mean that within a collective coming to understand what those
events have meant to us.... we might know them individually,
but not collectively....

as a kid, I had a lot of stiches... I wasn't afraid of anything, and so, I got
hurt a lot... one of the things to realize about getting hurt, either physically
or emotionally or psychologically, it leaves scars... and we often fail
to see that the scars that we don't see, inside of us, leave the greatest
damage...my emotional scars have followed me my whole life...
and have caused more problems for me, than my considerable
physical damage has.....

and all of this needs to be accounted for in our/my philosophy....
my entire childhood was dominated by violence of all sorts...
the assassination of JFK, the violence of Vietnam, the assassination
of MLK, and of RFK.... and the ongoing street violence from civil rights
actions to protest of the war... in 1968, we lived outside of Chicago,
my father was a newspaper man... during the 1968 Democratic convention,
he would come home with blood on his shirt from the violence downtown...

and how do I turn all of this into an individual and/or collective
philosophy?

we take philosophy and tie it up into set strict branches...
Metaphysics, logic, epistemology, ethics, Aesthetics, political science,
to name a few branches... and how do I get my own individual experiences,
to fit into these fairly strict branches of philosophy?

and ask yourself, how do you connect your own experiences into
one of those branches of philosophy?

this is part of the failure of philosophy... that we have disconnected it from
our own personal experiences.... it is not enough to think philosophy is
about epistemology, when it really should be how do we connect our
own experiences into a meaningful, profound philosophy?
when those branches of philosophy can't adapt enough to fit my own
experiences into it.....we have some choices... we can
reject the entire project of philosophy as being woefully inadequate
for our purposes because those branches of philosophy, don't match
up with my own experiences.... how do I connect up my experience with
Vietnam with epistemology, or with logic or Aesthetics?
philosophy as constituted, is too narrow... it cannot help me
understand the impact of Vietnam or Watergate because how
do those events fit into epistemology or logic or Aesthetics?
as so constituted, philosophy is a piss poor way to understand
my own experiences.... and that is the value of existentialism..
at least it attempted to expand the tools we have to explain
and understand our own experiences.... but that wasn't enough...
we need more, broader tools to explain what those experiences
mean to us..... and so, we can try to explain our experiences with
Vietnam or Watergate with a look at history or political science or
even psychologically.... philosophy has failed to explain our
experiences, either individually or collectively because
philosophy is too small, to narrow to properly explain such
large events or experiences like Vietnam or Watergate or even
9/11...... and so, what is the next step for philosophy?

I can't say, but I hope it becomes more inclusive toward events
and experiences....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm in thinking this morning, I wonder why if we have become so
sophisticated and scientific, that we don't have a better understanding of
who we are.....the question I keep on asking is, what does it mean to
be human? and no one seems to know, (or care)...

'I' KNOW, EXACTLY, what it MEANS to be so-called 'human'.

And, 'I' COULD EXPLAIN 'this' TO ABSOLUTELY ANY of 'you', human beings. That is; IF ANY one of 'you' were Truly INTERESTED and/or Truly CARED TO LISTEN.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm perhaps I should rephrase my question into... What is the ''human condition"

A so-called 'human condition' is to JUST be OPEN and CURIOS, in order TO LEARN.

But, VERY SADLY, 'this condition' somewhat DIMINISHES and/or GETS LOST during and because of Wrong and/or MISINTERPRETED TEACHINGS, (think 'religious teachings').

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm are we, as the Catholics say, guilty of crimes by simply being born?

NO.

But here 'we' have a PRIME example of ANOTHER Wrong and/or MISINTERPRETED TEACHING.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm is suffering the human condition, as the Buddhist say?

NO.

AGAIN, 'we' have ANOTHER PRIME example of Wrong and/or MISINTERPRETED TEACHING.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm are we as the religious say, only existing as part of god's grand scheme,

A Truly intelligent species, like 'you', human beings, ARE/WAS A VERY NECESSARY PART OF 'the plan'. But, 'you', human beings, are NOT existing, necessarily, as ONLY part of 'the plan', but rather BECAUSE 'you', human beings, HAVE KEPT "yourselves" alive, SO FAR, BECAUSE OF 'the INTELLIGENCE', which exists WITHIN 'you'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm and being negated in only having a role in god's plan....

Evolution does NOT STOP, and as 'you', human beings, evolved INTO BEING, FROM "other things", so to WILL 'you' evolve OUT OF BEING, and evolve INTO ANOTHER 'Thing'.

Which was ALL just A, VERY NATURAL, PART OF JUST COMING-TO-KNOW thy 'Self'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm and therein lays much of the modern day understanding of what is the human condition?

Which, as can be CLEARLY SEEN, WAS A VERY MUCH MISUNDERSTANDING, of the 'human condition', CAUSED, AGAIN, BY VERY Wrong and MISINTERPRETED TEACHINGS, HITHERTO, BACK in that so-called 'modern day', when this WAS being written.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm much of being is negated, dehumanized,
right now, nihilism is the human condition....

SEE here just HOW MUCH Wrong TEACHINGS were BEING INSTILLED, and WERE BEING BELIEVED TRUE.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm Nihilism: the negation and dehumanization of human beings
and their values.....

the perfect way to understand nihilism... is to think how big business
and right wing fanatics, put god/money before human beings...

If ABSOLUTELY ANY one BELIEVES that it was ONLY the so-called 'right wing fanatics' that put God/money before 'you', human beings', then this IS ANOTHER PRIME example of BEING BLINDED by BELIEFS.

ALL of 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written put 'money' BEFORE 'you', human beings, while SOME of 'you' might be putting God BEFORE 'you', human beings.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm we no longer pray to that all mighty being in the sky, we pray
to bills in our wallets... we have been devalued in the course of
our seeking out wealth/profits... this is a nihilistic age because
we no longer put human beings/life first.... we put money first..
everything is done in regard to how much money it might cost...
ask a GOP/MAGA type should money go to entitlement programs,
and they will say, why? that hard earn money should stay in our
pockets.... thus putting money ahead of people's lives...
any commentary about how the American taxpayer is just a commentary
about our current nihilism...

All 'you' are essentially talking ABOUT here is just the GREED WITHIN 'you', adult human beings.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm of course we don't have any vision about what it means to be human,

'you', OF COURSE, may well NOT have ANY 'vision' here, BUT some of 'us' DO.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm because we have devalued human beings to the point of
being of no consequence....if god has human being only value

Well considering that WONDERING, 'IF God has 'human being' ONLY value', is about one of the MOST ABSURD and RIDICULOUS 'self-centered' WONDERS, speaks VOLUMES of just how GREEDY, self-centered, and SELFISH adult human beings HAD REALLY BECOME, BACK in those days when this was being written.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm in being able to worship god forever, we don't matter,

WHY do 'you' apparently VERY RANDOMLY DECIDE to start a new line, in 'your' writings "peter kiropotkin"?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm and if we are devalued in terms of money before human beings,
we don't matter....and if systems like capitalism and communism,
put their values ahead of human beings, as they do, then we don't
matter....recall that neither capitalism or communism
put human beings first... in both systems, the human being
is and can easily be sacrificed to their almighty values...
communism to the materialistic dialectic... the might movement of
history toward being a classless society, asked for, no, demands,
the average worker be sacrificed for the greater good in the exact
same way capitalism demands its workers to sacrifice for the greater
good, for profits... as does a country demands it citizens to sacrifice for
the greater good of the country.. recall the great ''respect'' we give soldiers
and first responders... for their great sacrifice.... devaluing human
beings... this time not for money but for state......

Recall how MANY TIMES that 'you' think or BELIEVE that 'your' OWN PERSONAL VIEWS are SHARED BY EVERY one.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm our current systems, in both political and economic, demand
the sacrifice of people to make the system work.... but is the reverse
true? will the system ever sacrifice for us? nah... that's not going to
happen...

Are 'you' even AWARE that the so-called 'system' IS ALWAYS CREATED and/or CAUSED BY 'you', human beings?

So, if the 'system' EVER so-called 'sacrifices' FOR 'you', human beings, then this will ALWAYS depend ON IF 'you' CHANGE the 'system' FROM how 'it' is 'currently' working/performing, or NOT.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm part of the modern disconnect and alienation we moderns feel,

If 'you' think or BELIEVE that 'you', ones, here, when this is being written ARE so-called 'moderns', then 'you' ARE MORE than just DELUSIONAL and CONFUSED, 'you' are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY LOST.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm comes from the fact that we are simply tools to be sacrificed
for the betterment of the government/society/god/corporations....

ALL of which ARE OBVIOUSLY adult human being MADE UP and CREATED 'things'.

So, if 'you', human beings, in the days when this is being written, feel DISCONNECT and/or ALIENATED, then BLAME adult human beings AND 'the system' that 'you', adult human beings, HAVE CREATED and ARE CREATING.

And, OBVIOUSLY, as I have CONTINUALLY STATED throughout this forum, if 'you' WANT and DESIRE TO LIVE IN A BETTER 'world or place', then 'you', adult human beings, just NEED TO CHANGE, FOR THE BETTER.

SO SIMPLY, REALLY.

And, I have CONTINUALLY STATED throughout this forum, H.O.W, EXACTLY, 'you' CAN, and WILL, CHANGE, for the BETTER (MENT OF ALL and EVERY one).

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm history.. money... glory... fame.. is made on the bones of our
sacrifice to the ''system'', to the ''ism'' currently in place....

And, ONCE AGAIN, 'the system' and ALL 'ism's' ARE CREATED and CAUSED BY 'you', adult human beings, ALONE.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm in the modern day world, we all simply meant to be the victim,
to be sacrificed to the goals of the state/society/corporation/
religion....

What 'you', "peter kropotkin", call 'the modern day world', 'we' SEE VERY, VERY DIFFERENTLY.

How 'you', adult human beings, MIS/BEHAVED, BACK THEN, in those 'OLDEN DAYS' was NOT 'modern' AT ALL.

But, THEN AGAIN, ABSOLUTELY EVERY 'thing' IS RELATIVE TO 'the observer', right?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm and what if, what if we declare that we will not play the victim anymore?

Well 'you', "peter kropotkin", could START 'this', ' playing/being "the victim" ', by STOP BLAMING 'the system' and/or STOP FEELING like 'you' are being so-called 'sacrificed', when it IS 'you', an adult human being, who IS CAUSING and CREATING ANY and ALL 'issues' here.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm then we are called traitors, greedy, selfish, Liberals, nihilist....

and what is education? simply a means of training children into
being willing to sacrifice for the ''betterment'' of the state...otherwise
they are called.. traitors, greedy... etc, etc....

the values one is to adapt, is the values of the society/the
state-religion/ the state itself....not any sort of personal values,
but collective values that negate and dehumanizes one...
we can hold collective values that do not dehumanized us or
devalues us... values that puts the human being first....

BUT 'you', human beings, ARE NOT BEFORE ANY other animal, nor even ANY other object.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm and what values might those be??????

glad you asked....

non-nihilistic values are love, peace, charity, knowledge,
honor, hope, wisdom... positive values that give life meaning....

But 'Life', Itself, ALREADY HAS 'meaning', WITH or WITHOUT 'these things' here.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm pursing the trinkets of existence doesn't give one any sort of
meaning or purpose... but those values listed above, they do give
life meaning and purpose...

Can 'you' REALLY NOT FIND ABSOLUTELY ANY 'meaning' IN 'Life', Itself, WITHOUT 'those human created things', "peter kropotkin"?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:44 pm but those above listed values,
they don't create wealth or power to others.. thus they are
negated.... and we learn that through education.....

think about the values that you hold and the values
that we should hold as a state or society and why those values,
and not others....

Kropotkin

THINK ABOUT WHAT IS Wrong here in what 'you' SAID and PROPOSED here "peter kropotkin", and HOW and WHY.

In Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2, the spirit of the deceased school headmaster Albus Dumbledore says to Harry, “Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living and, above all, those who live without love.”

It’s a tragic fact that many chronically and pharmaceutically-untreatably depressed people won’t miss this world if they, for whatever reason, never wake up again. It’s not that they necessarily want to die per se; it’s that they want their pointless corporeal suffering to end.

Also, I read [and any reader should correct me if I’m in error] Sigmund Freud postulated that, regardless of one’s mental health and relative happiness or existential contentment, the ultimate goal of our brain/mind is death’s bliss because of the general stressful nature of our physical existence, i.e. anxiety or “stimuli”. It’s important to clarify, however, that it’s not brain death per se that is the aim but rather the kind of absolute peace that only brain death can offer in this hectic world.

Indeed, the Sigmund Freud character in the 2011 film A Dangerous Method, muttered upon having a near-death-experience heart attack, “How sweet it must be to die.”

Quite unfortunately, some people genuinely feel the greatest gift life offers them is that someday they get to die. Perhaps worsening matters is when suicide is simply not an option, meaning there’s little hope of receiving an early reprieve from their literal life sentence. And, of course, reincarnation is therefore the ultimate and unthinkable Hell.

FrankGSterleJr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:19 am In Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2, the spirit of the deceased school headmaster Albus Dumbledore says to Harry, “Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living and, above all, those who live without love.”

It’s a tragic fact that many chronically and pharmaceutically-untreatably depressed people won’t miss this world if they, for whatever reason, never wake up again. It’s not that they necessarily want to die per se; it’s that they want their pointless corporeal suffering to end.

Also, I read [and any reader should correct me if I’m in error] Sigmund Freud postulated that, regardless of one’s mental health and relative happiness or existential contentment, the ultimate goal of our brain/mind is death’s bliss because of the general stressful nature of our physical existence, i.e. anxiety or “stimuli”.

But there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING 'stressful', 'complex', nor even 'hard' about living/physical existence.

Although 'this' may well be contradictory to A LOT of adult human beings, in the days when this is being written.

FrankGSterleJr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:19 am It’s important to clarify, however, that it’s not brain death per se that is the aim but rather the kind of absolute peace that only brain death can offer in this hectic world.

This so-called 'hectic world' is nothing but a so-called 'blink of the eye', in relative terms.

This so-called 'hectic world' is NOT ONLY allievated through what 'you' call here 'brain death'.

Also, WHO and/or WHAT, EXACTLY, achieves so-called 'absolute peace', which 'you' ALSO CLAIM can ONLY be offered up AT so-called 'brain death'?

By the way, MANY, if NOT ALL, can live in 'this world' IN 'absolutely peace'.

FrankGSterleJr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:19 am Indeed, the Sigmund Freud character in the 2011 film A Dangerous Method, muttered upon having a near-death-experience heart attack, “How sweet it must be to die.”

To 'live', like is done in what 'you' call 'brain death' here, in a Truly 'thought-free' BLISSFUL 'existence' can be DONE ON and IN 'this world', or ON earth, as 'it' IS IN 'Heaven'.

Also, and OBVIOUSLY there is NO 'absolute peace' to ANY one who IS 'brain dead'.

FrankGSterleJr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:19 am Quite unfortunately, some people genuinely feel the greatest gift life offers them is that someday they get to die.

Some people, BACK in the days when this WAS being written, REALLY DID WISH 'they' were DEAD/NOT EXISTING. Which SHOWS and PROVES just HOW Truly Wrong and/or BAD adult human beings HAD MADE 'that world', that HECTIC.

FrankGSterleJr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:19 am Perhaps worsening matters is when suicide is simply not an option,

How could 'suicide' EVER BE 'not an option'?

FrankGSterleJr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:19 am meaning there’s little hope of receiving an early reprieve from their literal life sentence.

This here IMPLIES that FOR ABSOLUTELY ALL of 'one's life' 'that one' NEVER WANTED TO live. Which IS OBVIOUSLY False AND Wrong in EVERY WAY.

Unless, OF COURSE, I have INFERRED 'this' Falsely AND/OR Wrongly and 'you' would like to Correct 'me' here.

FrankGSterleJr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:19 am And, of course, reincarnation is therefore the ultimate and unthinkable Hell.

But, OBVIOUSLY, 'reincarnation', FROM THE PERSPECTIVE or WAY that 'you' ARE LOOKING and SEEING FROM here is ALSO Wrong, AND Incorrect.

I have read philosophy, history, social sciences, physics, economics
and all the other disciplines of human beings....now I can't speak to
the other disciplines as to their ''value''... are they worth reading?
but as my concentration has been on philosophy/religion over these
decades, I shall speak to those two concerns....

and within my readings, the topics of my readings, have been in
metaphysics, political science, epistemology, ethics,
aesthetics, logic, Axiology... and within the history of philosophy,
I have read ancient, medieval and modern philosophy....

there have been a few areas that ''spoke'' to me... and one of those areas,
has been existentialism... and the ''why'' philosophies...
one of the points I continuously make is the Kantian questions..

"What am I to do?" "What am I to believe/hope for?" ""What can I
know?"

as much as I hold to the Socratic maxims of ''Know thyself""
and the ''unexamined life isn't worth living'"
my philosophical life is contained within the Socratic maxims
and the Kantian questions...
I have favored the continental school of philosophy..
not the analytical school of philosophy....

if one were to graph my philosophical choices, I would clearly land on
the humanism side of philosophy, not the logical/math/science side
of philosophy...and that means much of philosophy is, for me anyway,
cold and not worth looking after... and most of the philosophies I have
read leaves me cold.... Plato for example, does nothing for me...
his questions are not my questions, and not so surprising Aristotle,
also leaves me cold... in fact, most of philosophy holds little interest to
me... not until I hit Kierkegaard, that philosophy actually becomes
interesting to me... and then finally, finally does philosophy actually
engages us as human beings....what is my point of existence?
philosophy finally engages with that question, beginning with Kierkegaard...

and as philosophy has left me cold, does religion leaves me cold...
and thus, my research into religions, long and varied as it has been,
offers me no answers.... my recent venture into Indian philosophy,
has left me cold, because they too, really engage in questions
of epistemology, and logic and metaphysics... but not so much
into the question of, why am I here? the Buddhi offers us
the answer of suffering, how do we escape suffering?

(in, fact, much of the world's philosophy/religions is
centered around this point of suffering and how to escape it,
whereas I don't see this question of suffering as an important one,
we suffer, so the fuck what? that is the price of admission into life,
into being human, the real question is, we suffer, now what?)

and the other answers to human existence, we call them ism's and
ideologies, like Catholicism, and Hinduism, Hedonism/Epicureanism,
Skepticism...to name a few, also leave me cold...

but the personal questions of philosophy, that is of great interest to me....

''What am I to do?" "What can I believe in?" "What can I hope for?"

and what is my place within the great ism's and ideologies of the world..
capitalism, communism, democracy, monarchies, dictatorships...how do
I fit into the economic and political institutions of the world... not necessarily
what is their value, but what is my place within them?

or to reduce all my questions into one question...

the why of my existence, not the how or the where, of existence,
but the why...and for me anyway, most philosophies/religions fail
to answer that question, why? (the answer of god, leaves me cold)

and so, I am trying to rewrite philosophy to address my own concerns...
we have political and economic systems that don't address my
own personal concerns of why? I see capitalism in terms of
its nihilism and I see the modern state in terms of its nihilism...
of god, country and guns, before human lives.... and that is nihilism...
and I see communism in term of its nihilism... the putting of isms
and ideologies before human beings and their values....
any ism/ideology that puts its own needs before the needs
of human beings and their values, that is, by definition, nihilism....

and perhaps, perhaps my own mission is to fight this nihilism...
to bring about an ism or ideology that isn't engaged into nihilism....
as virtually every single modern ism/ideology is engaged in
nihilism... the negation of human beings and their values....
perhaps that is the fight I engage with? the Nietzschean pursuit
of positive values to hold to, not the negative ones that the modern
state/society engages with.... the nihilism of our modern age....

a goal, no matter the size or shape of that goal, must have some
sort of direction within it... and perhaps that is what is lacking
in our modern day philosophy.. we lack some sort of direction
in our pursuit of modern day philosophy...
what is the goal of modern day philosophy? who knows, and that is
the entire point....we lack a goal that allow us to see, where
we are and where we need to be....

the question, what does it mean to be human? which I have already
identified as being a primary question of existence, that is the pointer
of where philosophy today needs to go.... given the modern philosophy
that is called ''Transhumanism"... what does it mean to be human,
in a world where we step closer and closer to a man/machine intermix?
where AI, is already transforming our world into.....?
that is the questions, some of them anyway, of what philosophy should
be engaged with....

as I am old, I am technological illiterate.... I couldn't cut and paste
to save my life....little less anything more technical....
and this question of technology and what it means to be human,
is frankly, out of my league... but nevertheless, a human question
that faces us, as human beings, for the first time in our existence is,
what role does technology play for us in our modern day state/society?

but this question of technology is not the only question facing us,
in this modern age... the question that existence, not just human
existence, all existence is bounded not by rationality or logic or purpose
but is faced with such things as randomness, chance, probability....
the Greeks truly believed that the universe is logical and easily
explainable in terms of its being rational and logically,
but, but we find the universe to be dominated by chance,
randomness, probability.... not god, not logic, not by rational means,
but by chance and randomness....

so, we have plenty of questions that face us as human beings...
what does it mean to be human in a random, chaotic, chance
universe where technology dominates... and that technology
also faces the question of randomness and probability...
technology, as we have seen time and time again, has ''glitches"
and those ''glitches" are more examples of randomness and chance...

how does one build a philosophy given the universe is about
chance and randomness and chaos?

these questions leave us with a profound sense of uneasiness and doubts...

and that is ok... we can find our answers and still be within doubt
and uneasiness ... we don't have to be certain... and that is really,
what the modern age is... we don't have to be certain.. we can be filled
with doubt and uneasiness.... and still find our answers....

Kropotkin

the modern age is full of doubt, uncertainty, uneasiness...
we have lost touch with certainty...
the certainty that the Greek held that the universe was rational
and explainable.... the certainty that god controls the universe,
and the certainty that human beings were progressing and we will
reach the promised land shortly....

all aspects of certainty.... today, we have doubt and uneasiness,
and what are ways to overcome our uneasiness and doubts?

many people have decided upon such negative values and ism's
as Nazism, MAGA/GOP, religions, conservativism to overcome our doubts and
uncertainties.... the modern day incel marching shouting about how
they will not be replaced, that is a fight to overcome their doubts
and uncertainity..... their seeking to find certainty in a world without
any certainty....they hold to their hatreds and prejudice as
a certainty... in an uncertain world....

but for the rest of us, who don't dwell in the house of hate and prejudice,
what values or ism's can overcome our doubts and uncertainty?
what positive values can we use to overcome our doubts and
uncertainty?

part of the rise of the haters, comes from being unable to pinpoint
the exact cause of their disconntenment.....
they turn to hatred and hatful ism's and ideologies because it is easier
to hate others then to work to identify the cause of our discontentment....

we are being replaced and it is easier to blame those who we are
prejudice against, but we are being replaced by technology and
transhumanism and nihilistic isms like capitalism and communism...

but we have a way to overcome the nihilism and negative isms,
and that is not by certainty, but seeking positive values and
accepting the idea of change.. we accept the exact same point of
the human condition as conservatives , that human beings are flawed...
but we believe we can change and the conservative do not....
change is not only possible but desirable.... says the liberal....

for a conservative, to give a Christmas example, both liberals
and conservatives agree that a human being like Ebenezer Scrooge
is possible and does exists.. but where we differ is the fact we
believe that Scrooge is redeemable/saved by his own actions...
a conservative doesn't believe that Scrooge can change outside
of forces beyond our control.... that Scrooge can be changed
by god, but not by his own actions....

and we come to the real reason that human beings today are filled
with doubt and uncertainty... that of control... we no longer feel
in control of what happens in our universe.... in the old days,
god was in charged and what happened was within his control,
but today, we no longer hold to that.... so, what is in control,
because it sure the hell isn't me or other human beings?

and this loss of control has driven much of our history for
over 500 years... since the rise of the first revolution,
the scientific revolution... and every revolution ever
since has removed more and more control away from
human beings and put that control out of our reach....
the question is, what exactly do human beings have control
over? we certainly don't have any type of control over the isms
and ideologies of the modern world, isms like communism or
capitalism....

as we have lost control over the world, we have come to realize
that the cause of our loss of control comes from chance,
probabilities and randomness....if the universe is random,
chaotic, full of probabilities, then what control do we have
over the universe? and that is the question, what kind
of control do we have over the universe?
none as far as I can tell......hence our modern day alienation
and discontentment....

but one possibility to overcome our loss of control is to freely admit
we have no control over existence, but that is tough for most
people to admit.... but we have no god, no ism or ideology upon
which we can control to have any type of supervision over our lives...
we are basically spectators in our lives....which is the point of having
a god, having an ism/capitalism/ or having hates and prejudice...
we think it returns us to having some sort of control over our lives....

the right wing screams about ''I will not be replaced" is simply
an attempt at controlling their lives....an attempt to overcome
the randomness and chaos of our lives....

we need a reevaluation of our values to reach values that match
and accept this newfound knowledge that we are at the mercy
of randomness and chaos and probibilities.....

Kropotkin

and this loss of control leads me time and time again to
existentialism...

that seems to me to be the only area of philosophy that is thinking
about some sort of engagement with the randomness and chance that
controls our universe.....

I am an existentialist because the universe is random and chaotic,
and the only response, as of right now, is to accept that
randomness and chance that exists within our universe....
thus becoming an existentialist is the way/method of controlling
the narrative of being human....the story of being human is not
by the analytic school of philosophy or by logic or science or
math.. but by the continental school of existence....
we can find our story by existentialism, not within
the rational study of logic or math...or within simplistic
slogans like, "we will not be replaced"... dude, you have
already be replaced, you aren't smart enough to see it yet...
or slogan like ''MAGA'' which means absolutely nothing...
it is a meaningless slogan that has no value in our world of
chance and probability.... ''MAGA'' is an idiotic attempt to
regain control over the world... and that ship has sailed...

and how do you suggest that you regain control over the world?

that is your philosophy.... and your narrative... and your story....

I have another philosophy, another narrative, another story to tell....

Kropotkin

the Shakespear's quote...

"Life is an tale,
told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing"

what does this quote actually mean?

it is a narrative of the human condition...
most of our tales, are full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing.... we tell tales of the universe,
that it is rational an logical and is easily explainable
by science, philosophy and religion.... depending on
which faith one believes in...

if the universe is random, of probabilities, then the universe
is hardly logical, rational or easily explainable by any source.. be it science
or philosophy or religion.....

if the universe is unexplainable by the sources we have,
then what is left to do? we have but two choices, create
new models of the universe, new models of what the universe
is, and how it works, and we must change our paradigm that the
the universe is explainable...... or we simple abandoned any
attempt to explain the universe and we continue our modern
journey that we have been on for the last 500 years....

continue to explain but with the knowledge that those explanations
are nothing more than a ''tale told by an idiot'', full of sound and fury....

that the modern conspiracy theories of the right, that the
Jew controls everything and the liberals want to replace the whites
with ''foreign' blood, that there is some sort of ''deep state''
and that white are superior to everyone else... more ''tales told
by an idiot.. full of sound and fury.....

and all of these attempts are simply trying to regain the narrative
that we can have some sort of control over the universe.....
but we cannot, at least not right now, we cannot control the forces
of chance and randomness and chaos within the universe.....
so, we tell tales full of sound and fury.. pretending to have some
sort of control over the universe.... like pretending that we can
say, " We will not be replaced" when all the universe seems to offer
is to be replaced... that is one of the fundamental statements
of existence...that the universe is change and replacement...
what else is there in the universe? science certainly doesn't give
us any assurances that we won't be able to stop change or stopped being
replaced...we, we will be replaced... that is a fact... that is how evolution
works... change and replacement is how evolution works...
fighting this means you may as well be fighting the sun rising tomorrow
morning.... and good luck with that....

Kropotkin

the modern day return to religions, religions long without any
sort of truth or possibilities to them... are attempts to create a new
tale, but as with any modern day tale, it is a tale told by idiots,
full of sound and fury.....

Modern day religious fundamentalism is really attempts
to regain the narrative of the day... an attempt to pretend
that the last 500 years of revolutions, never really happened...
that we can somehow return to the faith of old, like
nothing happened.... that our familiar universe is
really explainable by reasons of faith and god and religion...
but we can really explain the universe by chance or randomness
or probabilities.... and that really pisses of the conservatives....
the universe being not explainable or understandable because
how does one explain the universe in terms of it being random
or by chance....what narrative does one tell when stating that
the meaning of the universe is really random and chaos?

an easier explained universe is that god or that heaven exists....
that is an easier narrative to explain...and hold to.....than the
narrative that all/everything is chance and randomness....

what story will you tell about the meaning and purpose of the
universe? will that story/narrative be a logical, rational,
easily explainable, as the Greeks thought the universe was a
rational, explainable universe..... or does your narrative actually
include the universe being random and chaotic?

which tale will you be telling?

Kropotkin

and the famous nothingness of our modern age....

what exactly is that?

that is a thing without a story, or a narrative.... that is nothingness....
if we cannot create, by hook or crook, a narrative for something, then
it is nothingness....

thus we may see ''life'' as being ''nothingness'' basically because we
cannot create a story/narrative to work with ''life''
to be a something, we need a story or a narrative about it....
so, in its basic parts, existence to be, needs a story and for
there to be nothing, means that no story or narrative can be
created for it...

Kropotkin