Philosophy Now Forum

Progress
The term ‘Progress’ is used by almost everyone without any clear definitions, and therefore to suit their own vanity.
Progress for the particular is not at the same as holistic progress.
The particular can be any thing, or any purpose.
Holistic the whole of a society or humanity or our local and global ecosystems.
It can be whatever suits the purpose or policies of those who command society. Whatever suits free individuals and families in the mass. Or for the whole of society corporately. Nothing to do with progress is simply Right or Wrong in an ethical sense, except within the purpose.
Ethical progress and technological progress are very different creatures.
If we do not control technology, to the point of outright banning of a technology or a creation, then the Human Footprint on the world will be so immense and pervasive as to destroy nature, and leave us as machines in oxygen tents, eating analog food. Or simply a depleted world of happy compromise.
There is for instance, a vast difference between flying taxis being used for limited humanitarian purposes – and flying cars being a right for everyone to use and own, from their private backyards.
If we believe that nature is expendable then we have a predictable future.

who is to say that the entire purpose of the human species wasn't to introduce plastic into the ecosystem...

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:36 pm who is to say that the entire purpose of the human species wasn't to introduce plastic into the ecosystem...

-Imp

Everyone with a smattering of sense.

Progress is a subjective term meaning highly personal, in nature progress is evolutionary development linked to the ever-changing world. In order not to be nonsensical one must define one's terms. By what measurements is progress to be measured, and is it universal, probably not. With the decline of the natural world and the quality of our life support systems also in decline, progress universally is not a reality.

RWStanding wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:21 am Progress
The term ‘Progress’ is used by almost everyone without any clear definitions, and therefore to suit their own vanity.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of other words that get used by almost everyone without agreeing upon and accepting clear definitions.

One only has to look in this forum to see thousands of examples of this.

RWStanding wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:21 am Progress for the particular is not at the same as holistic progress.
The particular can be any thing, or any purpose.
Holistic the whole of a society or humanity or our local and global ecosystems.
It can be whatever suits the purpose or policies of those who command society. Whatever suits free individuals and families in the mass. Or for the whole of society corporately. Nothing to do with progress is simply Right or Wrong in an ethical sense, except within the purpose.
Ethical progress and technological progress are very different creatures.
If we do not control technology, to the point of outright banning of a technology or a creation, then the Human Footprint on the world will be so immense and pervasive as to destroy nature, and leave us as machines in oxygen tents, eating analog food.

But, this is progress. Although, you may see otherwise.

RWStanding wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:21 am Or simply a depleted world of happy compromise.

There is for instance, a vast difference between flying taxis being used for limited humanitarian purposes – and flying cars being a right for everyone to use and own, from their private backyards.
If we believe that nature is expendable then we have a predictable future.

Okay. But what has this got to do with 'progress', to suit one's own vanity?

Have you provided any clear definition, here?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:36 pm who is to say that the entire purpose of the human species wasn't to introduce plastic into the ecosystem...

-Imp

Obviously, every one.

Can you think of any one who would say otherwise?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 5:13 am Progress is a subjective term meaning highly personal,

Is there a term that is not subjective?

And, is the meaning you provided here your own personal subjective meaning?

Is it a meaning expressed in as a definition in any dictionary?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 5:13 am in nature progress is evolutionary development linked to the ever-changing world.

The so-called 'ever-changing world' is just defined by the term 'evolution', itself.

The word 'evolution means or refers to 'ever-changing'.

And, I do not know of anyone else who refers to 'evolution', itself, as 'progress'.

The word 'progress' can bring with it a connotation of improvement. Nature, Itself, is perfect, always. And, 'Nature' is always 'just changing', or in other words is just always evolving.

It is impossible to improve on, or to progress on, perfection.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 5:13 am In order not to be nonsensical one must define one's terms. By what measurements is progress to be measured, and is it universal, probably not. With the decline of the natural world and the quality of our life support systems also in decline, progress universally is not a reality.

I would say that universally the word 'progress' is redundant.

I am also unsure how you are aligning human beings and some 'life support systems', for them, with 'universally'.

On a universal scale human beings are nothing but less of a 'blimp', in size, and, less of a 'blink', in time.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:24 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 5:13 am Progress is a subjective term meaning highly personal,

Is there a term that is not subjective?

And, is the meaning you provided here your own personal subjective meaning?

Is it a meaning expressed in as a definition in any dictionary?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 5:13 am in nature progress is evolutionary development linked to the ever-changing world.

The so-called 'ever-changing world' is just defined by the term 'evolution', itself.

The word 'evolution means or refers to 'ever-changing'.

And, I do not know of anyone else who refers to 'evolution', itself, as 'progress'.

The word 'progress' can bring with it a connotation of improvement. Nature, Itself, is perfect, always. And, 'Nature' is always 'just changing', or in other words is just always evolving.

It is impossible to improve on, or to progress on, perfection.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 5:13 am In order not to be nonsensical one must define one's terms. By what measurements is progress to be measured, and is it universal, probably not. With the decline of the natural world and the quality of our life support systems also in decline, progress universally is not a reality.

I would say that universally the word 'progress' is redundant.

I am also unsure how you are aligning human beings and some 'life support systems', for them, with 'universally'.

On a universal scale human beings are nothing but less of a 'blimp', in size, and, less of a 'blink', in time.

Age,

Well, you have rephrased everything without really changing the original meaning so I do not disagree with anything you have stated here.

There is no such thing as progress, there is but adaptation to context, if the context changes, so must the adaptations to its changing change. If progress were to be understood as plastic this would make sense. Adaption is to that of a larger reality, whose nature is itself change, for all beings react to the being that surrounds them and engulfs them. Being is both a cause and a reaction in an endless process.

Progress is synonymous with utilitarianism. That's going in the right direction. But roses have thorns.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 8:24 am Progress is synonymous with utilitarianism. That's going in the right direction. But roses have thorns.

Progress is adaptation, whether to society or the larger context of nature. Utilitarianism, sometimes, while being adapted to function in society, is at odds with its larger context of nature. Is that what you meant by the roses have thorns? Good analogy, Martin!

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:39 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 8:24 am Progress is synonymous with utilitarianism. That's going in the right direction. But roses have thorns.

Progress is adaptation, whether to society or the larger context of nature. Utilitarianism, sometimes, while being adapted to function in society, is at odds with its larger context of nature. Is that what you meant by the roses have thorns? Good analogy, Martin!

Aye, that'll do. Making the masses pay for climate justice isn't justice.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:39 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 8:24 am Progress is synonymous with utilitarianism. That's going in the right direction. But roses have thorns.

Progress is adaptation, whether to society or the larger context of nature. Utilitarianism, sometimes, while being adapted to function in society, is at odds with its larger context of nature. Is that what you meant by the roses have thorns? Good analogy, Martin!

I've never liked the fact that American liberals now want to be called "Progressives". "Progress" suggests progressing toward some predetermined goal. "Liberal", on the other hand, suggest generosity and open mindedness. "Progessive" brings to my mind the clomping of Jack boots, marching in perfect unison.

Alexiev wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:48 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:39 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 8:24 am Progress is synonymous with utilitarianism. That's going in the right direction. But roses have thorns.

Progress is adaptation, whether to society or the larger context of nature. Utilitarianism, sometimes, while being adapted to function in society, is at odds with its larger context of nature. Is that what you meant by the roses have thorns? Good analogy, Martin!

I've never liked the fact that American liberals now want to be called "Progressives". "Progress" suggests progressing toward some predetermined goal. "Liberal", on the other hand, suggest generosity and open mindedness. "Progessive" brings to my mind the clomping of Jack boots, marching in perfect unison.

I agree Liberal indicates open to negotiation, while progress is directionless.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:39 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 8:24 am Progress is synonymous with utilitarianism. That's going in the right direction. But roses have thorns.

Progress is adaptation, whether to society or the larger context of nature.

So, if human being societies are destroying the environment or earth, for example, then just as long as human beings are 'adapting' to 'the destruction', then to "popeye1945" this is 'progress', correct?