The Philosophy Discussion Forum

I don't know if Christianity is true or not because I don't know if god, the paranormal, and the afterlife exist or not. But, I'm going to explain my personal reasons for why I think the Christian god is imperfect and unfair. First of all, according to Christianity, god is perfect, which means he can't sin. Having free will means it's possible for one to sin. But, since it's impossible for god to sin, that means he doesn't have free will. Jesus is perfect like god, according to Christianity, which means he doesn't have free will either.

Now, a perfect being always does what's best, and god didn't do what's best. That is, he didn't create humans and Satan as perfect (without free will). If god created them as perfect, that means nobody would face the horrendous fate of eternal suffering or annihilation in hell, and neither would god be displeased by sin because sin wouldn't exist. So, obviously, creating them as perfect is the best thing god should've done. It completely avoids the risk of going to hell. It says in the bible that god desires nobody to go to hell, and he desires to be pleased.

So, he did the wrong thing by giving humans and Satan free will, which means god is imperfect. Here's another reason why he's imperfect. He didn't bestow the realization of his existence and the existence of hell upon me and everyone else upon our very birth. Having this realization would compel us to repent to avoid hell and be saints. But, since he hasn't given us this realization, we're not compelled to.

Now, there are some people who are compelled to because they're convinced, based upon their research, that Christianity is true. But, when it comes to researching any controversial topic, such as whether Christianity is true or not, or whether vaccines are safe and effective or not, some people, including myself, can't find the answer, despite hours of online research into these topics. That's why I've given up on doing more research and why I'm not compelled to repent.

So, god (if he exists) should've given us the realization that Christianity is true. He could've done so by speaking from the sky and/or implanting this realization in our minds. Since he hasn't, that means he's imperfect. Here's another reason he's imperfect. People who are aware of the gospel and don't believe it and don't repent go to hell. So, god could've erased their awareness of the gospel right before their bodily death to save them from hell, since those who aren't aware of the gospel are saved.

He could've done so by using his divine power or by creating humans with brains that have a mechanism that automatically erases memories of the gospel before bodily death. Since he hasn't done so, then he's imperfect. Now, here are reasons why I think he's unfair. If someone came to the wrong conclusion about any controversial topic, based upon his research, then it would be cruel and unfair to cast him into hell for that. So, let's pretend Christianity is true and someone became an atheist, based upon his research.

It would be cruel and unfair for god to cast that atheist into hell. The atheist didn't know better because he was deceived. Here's another reason why god is unfair. There are babies who die upon birth or in the womb. They go to heaven without having to endure life's hardships or living a Christian lifestyle. But, other people must endure much hardship and undergo the rigorous task of proving themselves worthy of entering heaven by living a Christian life of repentance, prayer, reading the bible, etc.

This is unfair because those babies don't have to, while other people do. God should've made the souls of those babies, and the souls of anyone unaware of the gospel, do so after bodily death. But, he doesn't. He just grants them free access to heaven, which is unfair. There are other reasons god is unfair and imperfect, and these are just my personal reasons I wanted to share.

But, it's controversial as to whether he's perfect and fair or not, and I said I don't know the answer to controversial topics. So, even though I don't know if he's perfect and fair or not, I've given my reasons supporting the idea that he's unfair and imperfect.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am I don't know if Christianity is true or not because I don't know if god, the paranormal, and the afterlife exist or not. But, I'm going to explain my personal reasons for why I think the Christian god is imperfect and unfair. First of all, according to Christianity, god is perfect, which means he can't sin. Having free will means it's possible for one to sin. But, since it's impossible for god to sin, that means he doesn't have free will. Jesus is perfect like god, according to Christianity, which means he doesn't have free will either.

1. What is "christianity" to you, exactly, which could then even make "christianity", itself, true, or not true?

2. What do you mean by 'paranormal' here? Is a 'paranormal thing' even able to actually exist, to you?

3. Of course the 'afterlife' exists. It would be an impossibility to be not able to exist.

4. If you do not yet even know if God exists, then why even both explaining why you think God is so-called 'imperfect and unfair'?

5. Being so-called 'perfect' does not necessarily mean that 'that one' can not what is called 'sin'. But, being so-called 'perfect' means that 'that one' would KNOW what the word 'sin' ACTUALLY means and refers to, EXACTLY, and thus would also KNOW NOT 'what to do'. Being 'perfect' also means NOT WANTING to do what 'sinning' REALLY IS.

6. It does NOT 'conclude logically' that God does not have 'free will' BECAUSE God could choose to 'sin', if 'It' wanted to. But, in saying 'this', when, and if, you learn and discover what the word 'sin' means and refers to, exactly, then you will also see and understand the 'illogicality' of what could be called 'wanting to sin'.

7. Saying that the people who 'follow' "christianity", which is supposedly meant to be solely based off of and from "jesus" "christ", 'itself', claim that "jesus" is 'perfect', like God is, is just putting an entrusted or believed in human being a status regarded for some 'thing' else. Also, and anyway, once the True MEANING of the words "jesus christ" become KNOWN and what those words are referring to, exactly, (which by the way comes at and with what is sometimes referred to and called ' the second coming of "jesus" ', then, and only then, WHY it is said and claimed that "jesus" is as 'perfect' as God is, will be near enough to being FULLY UNDERSTOOD. Which, again, WHY God and "jesus" still HAVE 'free will' but still do NOT 'sin' will, also, be much more and/or much BETTER UNDERSTOOD.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am Now, a perfect being always does what's best,

But it is very commonly suggest, especially in the days when this is being written, that 'you', adult human beings, can only 'do your best', which could be inferred as meaning doing 'ones, or what is, best'. And, are 'you', adult human beings, 'perfect'.

Also, what does God, and what the word "jesus christ" ACTUALLY referring to NOT 'doing what is best'?

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am and god could've either created humans and Satan perfect like him and Jesus (having no free will), or having free will.

When, and if, you ever learn and fully understand who and what the word 'God' ACTUALLY means and is referring to, exactly, then you will NOT have 'these types of thinking' here.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am If god created them as perfect, that means nobody would face the horrendous fate of eternal suffering or annihilation in hell, and neither would god be displeased by sin because sin wouldn't exist.

you HAVE and ARE MISSING 'the mark' here, completely.

But, considering the fallacies above, which led to your 'illogical conclusion' above, then absolutely ANY type or kind of 'thinking' could occur here now.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am So, obviously, this is the best thing god should've done.

Have you considered that 'the way' 'satan' is 'now' IS PERFECT?

Could there be an ACTUAL REASON WHY 'satan' exists, and in the EXACT WAY that 'it' is 'now'? For example could a so-called 'perfect satan' be existing 'now', up to and in the days when this is being written, for A REASON of and for 'you', human beings, TO LEARN what IS ACTUALLY GOOD and Right, in Life?

Or, is 'this' just NOT A POSSIBILITY, AT ALL?

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am It completely avoids the risk of going to hell. It says in the bible that god desires nobody to go to hell, and he desires to be pleased.

When, and if, you learn and/or come to KNOW what the word 'hell' means and is referencing, exactly, then WHY 'things' ARE, the way that they are, becomes much BETTER UNDERSTOOD, and REALIZED.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am So, he did the wrong thing by giving humans and Satan free will, which means god is imperfect.

What we have here is ANOTHER PRIME example of how these human beings, back then, would say just about ANY 'thing', in the hope and desire that 'it' would or could somehow back up and support what they were, currently, ALREADY BELIEVING to be true.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am Here's another reason why he's imperfect. He didn't bestow the realization of his existence and the existence of hell upon me and everyone else upon our very birth.

Calling and/or labelling 'God' a "he" just shows and REVEALS that you still have some more to learn and understand here.

And, by the way, the REALIZATION of the existence of the above two were and are BESTOWED on ALL upon their very birth, those 'things' are just NOT 'consciously known', 'they' are however 'unconsciously KNOWN'. Which WILL ALL come-to-light, soon enough.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am Having this realization would compel us to repent to avoid hell and be saints.

But one, at its so-called 'very birth', can NOT 'repent' 'that' what 'it' has NOT YET DONE.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am But, since he hasn't given us this realization, we're not compelled to.

The KNOWING is 'there', 'you' just have NOT become SAVVY TO, nor REALIZED, 'IT', YET.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am Now, there are some people who are compelled to because they're convinced, based upon their research, that Christianity is true.

Did you answer my number '1' question above?

If no, then WHY NOT? And, if you did not, then I still have absolutely ANY clue NOR idea as to how "christianity", itself, could even be some 'thing' that is so-called 'true' or not.

It would be like saying or claiming that "jewism" or "americanism" is true, or not.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am But, when it comes to researching any controversial topic, such as whether Christianity is true or not, or whether vaccines are safe and effective or not, some people, including myself, can't find the answer, despite hours of online research into these topics.

1. How long do 'you', human beings, envision it would take to KNOW, FOR SURE, if a 'vaccine' was 'safe' and/or 'effective' or NOT? Also, the words 'safe' and 'effective' are VERY RELATIVE words.

2. How could the very 'thing' of some people 'following' and/or 'believing' some 'thing' EVER 'not be true'? IF some people are 'following' and/or 'believing' some 'thing', then 'they' are, OBVIOUSLY, doing 'it'. So, the words that refers to the doing of that 'thing', for example, "christianity" here would have to, in and of itself BE a 'true thing'. If, however, 'what' is being 'followed' or 'believed' is true, right, or correct, or NOT, is a WHOLE OTHER issue.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am That's why I've given up on doing more research and why I'm not compelled to repent.

Okay. 'you' ARE ABSOLUTELY FREE TO DO ABSOLUTELY ANY 'thing' 'you' like. Even when KNOWING just how Wrong or BAD 'that thing' IS, EXACTLY.

And, there is CERTAINLY NO requirement to REPENT 'your' OWN CHOSEN Wrong DOING.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am So, god (if he exists) should've given us the realization that Christianity is true.

God, or 'we', might be JUST WAITING TO SEE how 'you', personally, define the "christianity" word, FIRST, BEFORE God, or 'we', DECIDE to PROVIDE 'you' with what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that COULD HELP 'you' TO REALIZE.

Which, by the way, brings me to EXPLAINING that NO 'thing' can MAKE 'you' REALIZE, but 'you' MAKE REALIZATIONS "yourself" based SOLELY UPON the 'current' 'thinking' and/or 'believing' HAPPENING and OCCURRING WITHIN.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am He could've done so by speaking from the sky and/or implanting this realization in our minds.

1. God is NOT a "he".

2. WHY speak from 'the sky', ONLY?

3. 'you' do NOT have 'your minds'.

4. The KNOWING of the ACTUAL Truth is ALREADY WITHIN, just UNCONSCIOUSLY KNOWN, however, and THE REALIZATION COMES and OCCURS WHEN, and ONLY WHEN, the Right KIND of what is called 'thinking' or 'thought process' IS OCCURRING and HAPPENING.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am
Since he hasn't, that means he's imperfect.

To be ABLE TO CREATE A 'goal/outcome' a 'process' IS NEEDED, FIRST. If one of 'you', human beings, or even if ALL of 'you', human beings, do NOT 'like' 'the process', then that is PERFECTLY FINE. But one's 'dislike' of how 'things' are PROCEEDING ALONG here is NOT going to STOP 'the process' NOR 'the goal/outcome'.

NOT ALL 'things' are 'liked' in 'the plan', NOR in 'the process', towards ALL CREATIONS, but I suggest JUST WAITING, to SEE what ACTUALLY COMES ABOUT, and OCCURS.

Now, just because ANY or ALL of 'you', human beings, SO FAR, have NOT YET REALIZED, or do NOT LIKE, 'the process', then 'this' in NO WAY means that God, Itself, IS IMPERFECT.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am Here's another reason he's imperfect. People who are aware of the gospel and don't believe it and don't repent go to hell.

Here is ANOTHER PRIME example of having ABSOLUTELY 'MISSED THE MARK'.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am So, god could've erased their awareness of the gospel right before their bodily death to save them from hell, since those who aren't aware of the gospel are saved.

'This' IS False, Wrong, Inaccurate, AND Incorrect ALSO.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am He could've done so by using his divine power or by creating humans with brains that have a mechanism that automatically erases memories of the gospel before bodily death. Since he hasn't done so, then he's imperfect.

'These people', back then, REALLY WOULD say just about ANY 'thing' in the hope that 'it' could back up and support their ALREADY HELD ONTO CONCLUSION and BELIEF.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am Now, here are reasons why I think he's unfair. If someone came to the wrong conclusion about any controversial topic, based upon his research, then it would be cruel and unfair to cast him into hell for that.

When, and IF, you come to the True, Right, Accurate, AND Correct CONCLUSION about 'hell', itself, then you WILL also SEE, and CONCLUDE, HOW and WHY 'your conclusion' here is Wrong here, and just HOW Wrong 'it' IS, EXACTLY.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am So, let's pretend Christianity is true and someone became an atheist, based upon his research.

It would be cruel and unfair for god to cast that atheist into hell.

Is 'this god' the SAME God that you do NOT YET know if 'It' even exists or not?

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am The atheist didn't know better because he was deceived.

A so-called "atheist" IS just AS DECEIVED as a so-called "theist" IS. 'They' BOTH BELIEVE 'things' that ARE NOT True AT ALL.

'They' along with the REST of the adult human being population, in the days when this was being written, were AS DECEIVED and were BEING DECEIVED as "each other" WAS.

And, MOSTLY by 'your' OWN, personal, DECEPTION HELD UP and WITHIN 'your' OWN, personal, BELIEFS, and to a less extent 'your' OWN, personal, ASSUMPTIONS.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am Here's another reason why god is unfair. There are babies who die upon birth or in the womb. They go to heaven without having to endure life's hardships or living a Christian lifestyle.

How do you KNOW ALL of 'those babies' did NOT HAVE TO endure the HARDSHIPS in Life, which ARE CAUSED and CREATED by adult human beings, ONLY?

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am But, other people must endure much hardship and undergo the rigorous task of proving themselves worthy of entering heaven by living a Christian life of repentance, prayer, reading the bible, etc.

Are there REALLY SOME human beings living 'this way' portrayed here?

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am This is unfair because those babies don't have to, while other people do. God should've made the souls of those babies, and the souls of anyone unaware of the gospel, do so after bodily death. But, he doesn't. He just grants them free access to heaven, which is unfair. There are other reasons god is unfair and imperfect, and these are just my personal reasons I wanted to share.

Okay. Now, could ANY of your personal reasons here be False or Wrong in ANY way?

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am But, it's controversial as to whether he's perfect and fair or not, and I said I don't know the answer to controversial topics.

What makes 'a topic' a so-called 'controversial' one or not?

For example when you HAVE the answer/s to 'topics', then are 'those topics' so-called 'controversial' ones?

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am So, even though I don't know if he's perfect and fair or not, I've given my reasons supporting the idea that he's unfair and imperfect.

Calling or labeling A 'Thing', which is NOT even 'gendered' a "he", some might say or claim IS 'unfair AND imperfect', itself.

"He just grants them free access to heaven, which is unfair."

Imagine going to heaven and meeting a dude who died when he was five months old.

You: what's up man, how's it goin?

Dude: oh it's great here. You must be new.

You: yeah i just got here. I was thrown out of a window after a Russian cartel raped my family in front of me. I was dying of cancer and had to foreclose on my house too, so it's not like i had much to look forward to in life anyway.

Dude: no shit?

You: yeah. How'd u get here?

Dude: i died when i was five months old. Don't remember any of it. I feel like I've been here forever. Never suffered a lick my entire life. Isn't god great?

You: [aghast, looking at dude] uh, yeah sure, god's great man. Listen I'm gonna go do something else now. See ya.

Mindwave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:03 am I don't know if Christianity is true or not because I don't know if god, the paranormal, and the afterlife exist or not. But, I'm going to explain my personal reasons for why I think the Christian god is imperfect and unfair. First of all, according to Christianity, god is perfect, which means he can't sin. Having free will means it's possible for one to sin. But, since it's impossible for god to sin, that means he doesn't have free will. Jesus is perfect like god, according to Christianity, which means he doesn't have free will either.

Now, a perfect being always does what's best, and god didn't do what's best. That is, he didn't create humans and Satan as perfect (without free will). If god created them as perfect, that means nobody would face the horrendous fate of eternal suffering or annihilation in hell, and neither would god be displeased by sin because sin wouldn't exist. So, obviously, creating them as perfect is the best thing god should've done. It completely avoids the risk of going to hell. It says in the bible that god desires nobody to go to hell, and he desires to be pleased.

So, he did the wrong thing by giving humans and Satan free will, which means god is imperfect. Here's another reason why he's imperfect. He didn't bestow the realization of his existence and the existence of hell upon me and everyone else upon our very birth. Having this realization would compel us to repent to avoid hell and be saints. But, since he hasn't given us this realization, we're not compelled to.

Now, there are some people who are compelled to because they're convinced, based upon their research, that Christianity is true. But, when it comes to researching any controversial topic, such as whether Christianity is true or not, or whether vaccines are safe and effective or not, some people, including myself, can't find the answer, despite hours of online research into these topics. That's why I've given up on doing more research and why I'm not compelled to repent.

So, god (if he exists) should've given us the realization that Christianity is true. He could've done so by speaking from the sky and/or implanting this realization in our minds. Since he hasn't, that means he's imperfect. Here's another reason he's imperfect. People who are aware of the gospel and don't believe it and don't repent go to hell. So, god could've erased their awareness of the gospel right before their bodily death to save them from hell, since those who aren't aware of the gospel are saved.

He could've done so by using his divine power or by creating humans with brains that have a mechanism that automatically erases memories of the gospel before bodily death. Since he hasn't done so, then he's imperfect. Now, here are reasons why I think he's unfair. If someone came to the wrong conclusion about any controversial topic, based upon his research, then it would be cruel and unfair to cast him into hell for that. So, let's pretend Christianity is true and someone became an atheist, based upon his research.

It would be cruel and unfair for god to cast that atheist into hell. The atheist didn't know better because he was deceived. Here's another reason why god is unfair. There are babies who die upon birth or in the womb. They go to heaven without having to endure life's hardships or living a Christian lifestyle. But, other people must endure much hardship and undergo the rigorous task of proving themselves worthy of entering heaven by living a Christian life of repentance, prayer, reading the bible, etc.

This is unfair because those babies don't have to, while other people do. God should've made the souls of those babies, and the souls of anyone unaware of the gospel, do so after bodily death. But, he doesn't. He just grants them free access to heaven, which is unfair. There are other reasons god is unfair and imperfect, and these are just my personal reasons I wanted to share.

But, it's controversial as to whether he's perfect and fair or not, and I said I don't know the answer to controversial topics. So, even though I don't know if he's perfect and fair or not, I've given my reasons supporting the idea that he's unfair and imperfect.

Yet another example of the illogic inherent in the concepts of omniscience, omnipotence and perfection. Of course this has nothing to do with the possibility of gods since if they exist, they are free to be different in reality from human descriptions and human created dogma.

"if they exist, they are free to be different in reality from human descriptions and human created dogma."

and yet, this god remains inconceivable unless he provides for us ways to comprehend him and his power.

The abrahamic religions have no other option but to conceive of god in anthropomorphic terms (given the content of the doctrine)... but when they do, they arrive at unavoidable impasses. Hence the 3000 year old failed arguments regarding omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.

God's paradox: to be know, he has to create a conceptual framework that humans understand. If he creates a conceptual framework that humans can understand, they cannot know him.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:37 pm "if they exist, they are free to be different in reality from human descriptions and human created dogma."

and yet, this god remains inconceivable unless he provides for us ways to comprehend him and his power.

He/"IT" has made ways for us to conceive of its power (atto now with 26years of experience). God is more powerful <to our entire reality> than most theists probably believe.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:37 pmThe abrahamic religions have no other option but to conceive of god in anthropomorphic terms (given the content of the doctrine)...

What makes you think that? I'm not certain God is sentient, intelligent yes but sentient perhaps only when it interfaces to its male form (Christ )

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:37 pm but when they do, they arrive at unavoidable impasses. Hence the 3000 year old failed arguments regarding omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.

Precisely what MORON came up with those three omnis!!? Clearly a moron because an entity threatening to burn you in HELL forever is clearly NOT f****** OMNIBENEVOLENT = NO paradox!

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:37 pmGod's paradox: to be know, he has to create a conceptual framework that humans understand. If he creates a conceptual framework that humans can understand, they cannot know him.

FFS. One does not need to know EVERYTHING about this rather odd entity G_OD, to know God and what it is capable of.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:37 pm "if they exist, they are free to be different in reality from human descriptions and human created dogma."

and yet, this god remains inconceivable unless he provides for us ways to comprehend him and his power.

But God has ALREADY been conceived, comprehended, and understood, and thus IS ALSO KNOWN, but, OBVIOUSLY, NOT by all of 'you: YET.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:37 pm The abrahamic religions have no other option but to conceive of god in anthropomorphic terms (given the content of the doctrine)... but when they do, they arrive at unavoidable impasses. Hence the 3000 year old failed arguments regarding omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.

But previously FAILED arguments have absolutely NO bearing on future SOUND and VALID arguments.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:37 pm God's paradox: to be know, he has to create a conceptual framework that humans understand. If he creates a conceptual framework that humans can understand, they cannot know him.


83opug.jpg

This is one Truly ILLOGICAL PRESUMPTION, and CLAIM.