Philosophy Now Forum

let us have another look at something that I have been wondering about...

matter and soul... and its effects on us, as both human beings
and as American's.....

we American's pursue matter.. which are the trinkets of existence...
money, power, titles, material possessions, fame...
but we do not pursue matters of the soul... which is a much finer detail....
matters of the soul is improvement of our soul, living as a ''way of life''
taking a value such as justice and live our lives within that value..
so everything we do, we do in terms of seeking out justice...
that is soul...to pursue values instead of material things...

if we pursue values like justice/equality, freedom, integrity, compassion,
kindness, humility, wisdom... then we are pursuing soul, not matter...
there has been no real movement in who we are because there cannot
be movement in the soul if we are just pursuing the matter/material....

no one asks, how can we be better human beings because that thought
is against the pursuit of matter/the trinkets of existence....
the media tells us to buy and live our lives within the pursuit of
matter.. wealth, power, fame, titles, and material possessions....
even in the religion of Muscular Christianity....
which is dominating the churches these days... and Muscular Christianity
is the belief in patriotic duty, discipline, self-sacrifice, masculinity
and the moral and physical beauty of athleticism.....
(which BTW, is completely the opposite of what Jesus said and
preached)
and these values are not, not about the soul, but about
the pursuit of matter...for the goal is not the improvement of
the soul, but of the body.....

we have, as a country, a society, a state and a civilization, lost
touch with our soul....but Kropotkin, you have in the past,
argued for the body, of materialism... and I have.. but we can
be of the body and materialism and still not lose sight of the soul...

I have rejected the trinkets of modern society, that of material possessions, of
the pursuit of wealth and power, and fame, titles and the materialism
of the modern age....so what is left Kropotkin?

we have lost touch with the point of, the goal of existence... for it is not
wealth or power or fame, as I have often pointed out because they
those goals are transitory, ''ad hoc"... so what is a more permanent goal to
reach for?

to seek out a value and then live our life as a "way of life" according to
that value... we pursue justice or love, charity as a ''way of life"
in every action and thought, we think, is this the path to our ''value"
to our ''way of life?"

this doesn't mean we now deny or forbid the trinkets of
existence? No, what it means is that we see these trinkets
as they are....not as goals but as a mean... if I am wealthy,
so be it, I don't change who I am because of that... my goal is to
become something more human, to go from animal, to animal/human
to becoming fully human... and within that goal, I can have a TV or a nice
couch or a car.. as long as I can know that these trinkets have very little
value in our lives... we have perspective, real perspective on the trinkets
of existence... we can take them or leave them... wealth, power, fame,
titles and material possessions are not the highlight of existence, but
the background of who we are...the focus, the real focus of existence
is engaged in becoming human and overcoming the indoctrinations of
our childhood.... not in seeking out titles or fame or wealth or materials things...
if they come, they come, if they don't, oh well.... it doesn't change
our lives if we live a comfortable existence or not... we still seek out
what it means to be human....

the point is to have a perspective on what is valuable.. truly valuable...
and as wealth and power and fame and material possessions and titles
are all transitory, ''ad hoc'' of the moment, they have very little value...
but what is valuable? that which we can hold onto all our lives...
the values of the soul...to live out our live as a ''way of life'' in a value
we choose and hold to......

I have slept on the floor and I have slept on a bed... I prefer a bed...
but I don't make that the point of my existence.. that is simply a
by product of what I do, not the goal of what I do...

one of the things that happens as we grow old, is that we devalue
material possessions... One discovers that we have a lot of crap in
our lives...meaningless, pointless crap that just takes up space in our
lives.... stuff that at one point in time, I had to have... and today,
I am willing to toss away as having no meaning in my life...reducing
our lives to the essentials.. and a couch is useful.. mostly to fall asleep on
while watching TV... but I don't need or want a new couch just because
our couch is getting a bit old....perspective on what matters, what
really matters...

and the trinkets of existence don't matter, they just clutter up one's life...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:22 pm

matter and soul... and its effects on us, as both human beings
and as American's.....

So make up your mind, which is it?

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:26 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:22 pm

matter and soul... and its effects on us, as both human beings
and as American's.....

So make up your mind, which is it?

K: asked and answered...

Kropotkin

and what is the goal/point of existence?

we are, as soon as we are born, indoctrinated... into the values and beliefs
the society/state we were born into...at some point, in the teens for some,
young adulthood for others, and for some, they never escape the
indoctrinations of their childhood...

step one: to overcome our childhood indoctrinations to have beliefs
that we believe in, not beliefs that were indoctrinated into us...
and this means we must, as Socrates said, to ''know thyself"'
and secondly, ''the examined life isn't worth living''
to examine our lives, our beliefs and our values to see if
those values and beliefs are really our beliefs and values...
I hold that most people values and beliefs are simply carried
over from their childhood, their parents, their church, the media
and the society at large... people don't actually hold their
own beliefs... they simply use/believe in the values and beliefs
they were taught/educated/indoctrinated with....

and if your values/beliefs are actually the state/society indoctrinations,
then what values/beliefs should you hold to? and that is the second part...
which values/beliefs are the values that bring us to becoming fully human?

the path as I have noted before, is animal, animal/human to becoming
fully human... and that is basically us going from being indoctrinated
into our society/state beliefs to holding our own values and beliefs...
to go from being indoctrinated to not... the path of being human
is not a physical path, but a path of holding on to beliefs and values
that are your own, not anyone else's....
beliefs and values that you worked out and have tested...

the next step is to then in finding the values and beliefs you own,
is to live life as means of practicing those discovered values and
beliefs you have found...so, in my own overcoming, I have
removed my indoctrinated values/beliefs and replaced them
with values/beliefs that I hold, and then I live my life according to those values
and beliefs I own...the closer I get to finding and then living my values/beliefs,
is the closer I get to becoming fully human....until I find what my values
beliefs are, I live my life as an animal/human....

and this has nothing really to do with material things... I can drive
a car and own a house and take vacations while still discovering
what it means to be human....the trinkets of existence are there
to support you, not to determine you... not the thing to spend
one life seeking... but simply help make it possible for us to
find that thing which is worth seeking... values and beliefs
that define us....

Kropotkin

Well before you can what the point of existance might be, you should figure out if there is a point to existance.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:22 pm let us have another look at something that I have been wondering about...

matter and soul... and its effects on us, as both human beings

Matter and soul does not have an effect on 'you', human beings, as 'you', human beings, literally are matter and soul, itself.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:22 pm and as American's.....

There is NO such ACTUAL 'thing' as an "american".

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:22 pm we American's pursue matter.. which are the trinkets of existence...
money, power, titles, material possessions, fame...
but we do not pursue matters of the soul... which is a much finer detail....
matters of the soul is improvement of our soul, living as a ''way of life''
taking a value such as justice and live our lives within that value..
so everything we do, we do in terms of seeking out justice...
that is soul...to pursue values instead of material things...

if we pursue values like justice/equality, freedom, integrity, compassion,
kindness, humility, wisdom... then we are pursuing soul, not matter...
there has been no real movement in who we are because there cannot
be movement in the soul if we are just pursuing the matter/material....

no one asks, how can we be better human beings because that thought
is against the pursuit of matter/the trinkets of existence....
the media tells us to buy and live our lives within the pursuit of
matter.. wealth, power, fame, titles, and material possessions....
even in the religion of Muscular Christianity....
which is dominating the churches these days... and Muscular Christianity
is the belief in patriotic duty, discipline, self-sacrifice, masculinity
and the moral and physical beauty of athleticism.....
(which BTW, is completely the opposite of what Jesus said and
preached)
and these values are not, not about the soul, but about
the pursuit of matter...for the goal is not the improvement of
the soul, but of the body.....

we have, as a country, a society, a state and a civilization, lost
touch with our soul....but Kropotkin, you have in the past,
argued for the body, of materialism... and I have.. but we can
be of the body and materialism and still not lose sight of the soul...

I have rejected the trinkets of modern society, that of material possessions, of
the pursuit of wealth and power, and fame, titles and the materialism
of the modern age....so what is left Kropotkin?

we have lost touch with the point of, the goal of existence... for it is not
wealth or power or fame, as I have often pointed out because they
those goals are transitory, ''ad hoc"... so what is a more permanent goal to
reach for?

to seek out a value and then live our life as a "way of life" according to
that value... we pursue justice or love, charity as a ''way of life"
in every action and thought, we think, is this the path to our ''value"
to our ''way of life?"

this doesn't mean we now deny or forbid the trinkets of
existence? No, what it means is that we see these trinkets
as they are....not as goals but as a mean... if I am wealthy,
so be it, I don't change who I am because of that... my goal is to
become something more human, to go from animal, to animal/human
to becoming fully human... and within that goal, I can have a TV or a nice
couch or a car.. as long as I can know that these trinkets have very little
value in our lives... we have perspective, real perspective on the trinkets
of existence... we can take them or leave them... wealth, power, fame,
titles and material possessions are not the highlight of existence, but
the background of who we are...the focus, the real focus of existence
is engaged in becoming human and overcoming the indoctrinations of
our childhood.... not in seeking out titles or fame or wealth or materials things...
if they come, they come, if they don't, oh well.... it doesn't change
our lives if we live a comfortable existence or not... we still seek out
what it means to be human....

the point is to have a perspective on what is valuable.. truly valuable...
and as wealth and power and fame and material possessions and titles
are all transitory, ''ad hoc'' of the moment, they have very little value...
but what is valuable? that which we can hold onto all our lives...
the values of the soul...to live out our live as a ''way of life'' in a value
we choose and hold to......

I have slept on the floor and I have slept on a bed... I prefer a bed...
but I don't make that the point of my existence.. that is simply a
by product of what I do, not the goal of what I do...

one of the things that happens as we grow old, is that we devalue
material possessions... One discovers that we have a lot of crap in
our lives...meaningless, pointless crap that just takes up space in our
lives.... stuff that at one point in time, I had to have... and today,
I am willing to toss away as having no meaning in my life...reducing
our lives to the essentials.. and a couch is useful.. mostly to fall asleep on
while watching TV... but I don't need or want a new couch just because
our couch is getting a bit old....perspective on what matters, what
really matters...

and the trinkets of existence don't matter, they just clutter up one's life...

Kropotkin

LuckyR wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:17 pm Well before you can what the point of existance might be, you should figure out if there is a point to existance.

There is a point to Existence.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:22 pm let us have another look at something that I have been wondering about...

matter and soul... and its effects on us, as both human beings
and as American's.....

I much prefer Rock & Roll, especailly the progressive kind. Soul is a bit whimpy, and girly

FOr example. Budgie. Not the best looking trio in the world, but they and a handful of other British bands invented Hard Rock/ Heavy Metal..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54H3EUAzpVg

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:40 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:26 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:22 pm

matter and soul... and its effects on us, as both human beings
and as American's.....

So make up your mind, which is it?

K: asked and answered...

Kropotkin

It's a false dichotomy.
We are either matter or soul, or both, but "WE" are not separate from them in the sense of asking; "what are the affects of these on "US" as Americans."

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 9:18 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:17 pm Well before you can what the point of existance might be, you should figure out if there is a point to existance.

There is a point to Existence.

If you say so. Good luck in your path.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:12 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 9:18 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:17 pm Well before you can what the point of existance might be, you should figure out if there is a point to existance.

There is a point to Existence.

If you say so. Good luck in your path.

And what the ACTUAL POINT IS, EXACTLY, is also ALREADY KNOWN, by the way.

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 11:02 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:12 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 9:18 am

There is a point to Existence.

If you say so. Good luck in your path.

And what the ACTUAL POINT IS, EXACTLY, is also ALREADY KNOWN, by the way.

Well, in Real Life many, many say the same thing, yet have different answers. Sounds kind of random (subjective) to me (and to statisticians).

LuckyR wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:57 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 11:02 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:12 pm

If you say so. Good luck in your path.

And what the ACTUAL POINT IS, EXACTLY, is also ALREADY KNOWN, by the way.

Well, in Real Life many, many say the same thing, yet have different answers. Sounds kind of random (subjective) to me (and to statisticians).

Okay, but are your own personal and different views, and what you perceive to be the so-called 'Real Life', the ONLY True and Real views?

By the way, have you ever REALLY delved down deep into all of those different views to ascertain what the One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY, in relation to the Only and ONLY Truly Real Life? Or do you just BELIEVE that you ALREADY KNOW the Real Life?

Age wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:21 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:57 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 11:02 pm

And what the ACTUAL POINT IS, EXACTLY, is also ALREADY KNOWN, by the way.

Well, in Real Life many, many say the same thing, yet have different answers. Sounds kind of random (subjective) to me (and to statisticians).

Okay, but are your own personal and different views, and what you perceive to be the so-called 'Real Life', the ONLY True and Real views?

By the way, have you ever REALLY delved down deep into all of those different views to ascertain what the One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY, in relation to the Only and ONLY Truly Real Life? Or do you just BELIEVE that you ALREADY KNOW the Real Life?

You're completely missing the point. One person (say, you) being completely convinced the answer is X is expected. However, in a world of more than one person (ie Real Life), a second individual going through the identical process but coming up with the opposite conclusion, say Y, means there isn't a single answer. So you or I being absolutely convinced is meaningless to everyone who is not you or I. ie it's personal (that is: subjective).

BTW when asking blustery questions, it would be intellectually honest to provide your own answers first.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:50 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:21 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:57 pm

Well, in Real Life many, many say the same thing, yet have different answers. Sounds kind of random (subjective) to me (and to statisticians).

Okay, but are your own personal and different views, and what you perceive to be the so-called 'Real Life', the ONLY True and Real views?

By the way, have you ever REALLY delved down deep into all of those different views to ascertain what the One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY, in relation to the Only and ONLY Truly Real Life? Or do you just BELIEVE that you ALREADY KNOW the Real Life?

You're completely missing the point. One person (say, you) being completely convinced the answer is X is expected.

And you are missing the Fact that UNTIL you GAIN CLARITY ABOUT what one's view and perspective IS, EXACTLY, your ASSUMPTION about what IS ACTUALLY taking place is of NO REAL SIGNIFICANCE.

JUST MAYBE what one (say, ANY one) IS so-called 'convinced about' IS BECAUSE what one is 'convinced about' IS IRREFUTABLY True.

But, AGAIN, UNTIL you OBTAIN ACTUAL CLARITY you will NEVER KNOW.

Just ASSUMING that what one is 'being completely convinced about' IS Wrong will ALWAYS lead you COMPLETELY ASTRAY.

Are you ABLE TO SEE 'this POINT', now?

If no, while you continue to 'be completely convinced' that what "another" is 'completely convinced ABOUT' HAS TO BE FALSE, WRONG, or INCORRECT, then you WILL continue BELIEVE that 'the answer is X'.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:50 am However, in a world of more than one person (ie Real Life), a second individual going through the identical process but coming up with the opposite conclusion, say Y, means there isn't a single answer.

BUT, there MAY WELL BE A SINGLE ANSWER. That two, or more, human beings have NOT YET SEEN NOR REACHED that SINGLE ANSWER in absolutely NO WAY MEANS that there is not A SINGLE ANSWER. 'Being completely convinced' that there is NO SINGLE ANSWER is ANOTHER example of one BELIEVING some 'thing', which may well NOT be True AT ALL.

ALSO, if 'a world' of 'more than one person' IS 'Real Life', then, OBVIOUSLY, there IS ONE SINGLE ANSWER in relation to the QUESTION, 'How many people are there in 'a world'?

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:50 am So you or I being absolutely convinced is meaningless to everyone who is not you or I. ie it's personal (that is: subjective).

So, it WAS, and IS, absolutely MEANINGLESS to absolutely EVERY one who was, and is, NOT the one person who was 'absolutely convinced', and SAYING and STATING that ACTUALLY it is the earth that revolves around the sun, according to 'your' own personal, subjective "logic" here, BECAUSE that one was 'absolutely convinced' about the earth did actually revolve around the sun.

If some one is 'absolutely convinced' of some 'thing', then 'that thing' is ONLY 'meaningless' to 'those' who think or BELIEVE that 'that' IS MEANINGLESS.

AND, what IS MEANINGLESS, or NOT, is ALWAYS relative to 'the observer'. So, in other words, what you FIND and SAY, 'IS MEANINGLESS', "others" may NOT well FIND, nor SEE, the SAME 'thing'.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:50 am BTW when asking blustery questions, it would be intellectually honest to provide your own answers first.

What are so-called 'blustery questions'.

And, when the police are questioning people, for example, are the police so-called 'intellectually honest' in providing their own answers, first?

Or, do police not ask so-called 'blustery questions'? Or, do the police not have to be 'intellectually honest'? Or, does some 'thing' else happen here?

ALSO, if absolutely ANY one Truly WANTS TO KNOW what MY OWN ANSWERS ARE, EXACTLY, then ALL they NEED TO DO IS JUST ASK me what MY ANSWERS ARE, EXACTLY.