Philosophy Now Forum

I am finally able to write as work has been determined to kill
me with extra hours and strange hours...

I am still deep into my Indian philosophy study....

the one thing that Indian philosophy seems to agree on is there is a
"Unchangeable reality" behind all the apparent change we see...
the name in Indian philosophy for this "unchangeable reality" is
brahman... and virtually all Indian philosophy agrees with this...

In reading the earliest Indian text, the Upanisads, the underlying
idea in it is that underneath the exterior world of change, there is
an ''unchangeable reality'' which is identical with that which
underlies the ''essence of man''.... in other words, that which makes
us human is also that which is this ''unchangeable reality''
they are the same thing that has been separated... and that separation
is in the form of being born again and again and again......this rebirth of
beings into various living beings, up or down depending on our actions,
or Karma: which is the belief that our current actions decide whether we
are reborn as human beings or dogs or worse....good actions means we get
reborn as something good, such as a human being and bad actions means
we get reborn as a dog or worse...and the key for Buddhist anyway, is
to achieve enlightenment... which means we no longer ''suffer'' from
being reborn again and again... and this enlightenment returns us to
the ''ultimate reality'' which is also within us... we return our being
to this ''ultimate reality, this ''unchangeable reality''

If we think about western philosophy and Plato and Parmenides,
they held the same belief and certainly Kant held that belief...
that there is an ''ultimate reality'' behind our temporary nature/
our exterior world of change...the earliest ''Upanishads'' is very
similar to the pre-Socratic philosophers... the early "Upanishads''
and pre-Socratic philosopher were trying to find this ''ultimate reality''
this ''Unchangeable reality'' in some physical aspects of the universe...
as in the west, the east sought this ''Ultimate reality'' in fire, the sun,
wind, lightening, vital breath... exactly as the pre-Socratic philosophers
sought it.....and this search for the ''Ultimate reality'' took centuries
to work out...and this search is laid out in the ''Upanishads''...
but the interesting thing is that when ''Brahman'' or as some called it, ''Atman''
was described, it was more in terms of not what it was, but more of what it
was not.. not this and not that...and one more bit of interesting information...
in the "Upanishads'' there is no theory of causation.. of cause and effect...

as I am still working on the earliest philosophies, before the first century AD,
which is the beginning of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism...
Buddhism and Jainism began roughly the same time, with both Originators
being alive at the same time... and Hinduism... being over a thousand years
older... with both the Buddha and Mahavira, refusing to accept the
wisdom of the Vedas.. which is the basis of the Hindu religion....
in fact, the dividing line of Indian philosophies is the acceptance
or rejection of the Vedas... there are 6 schools that rejected
the Vedas.. Buddhism, Jainism, Charvaka, Ajivaka, and Ajnana...
the really interesting one is Charvaka.. which is one of the
earliest Indian philosophies.. and the Charvaka philosophy
is best described as being materialistic and atheistic...
a good book to study Charvaka philosophy is
''Lokayata: a study of Ancient Indian materialism by
Deiprased Chattopadhyaya....it is online as a PDF...

now think of these schools as we think of the schools of
ancient Greek philosophy... such as Platonist, the Aristotelian, the Stoic,
the Epicurean, and the Skeptic....with each school attacking the other
schools and providing reasons for and against the various schools...

now the next topic is also a familiar one... it is within my eastern
philosophy readings that I worked out another topic of discussion
especially by Nietzsche.. that of Nihilism....and he called
the 20th century, the age of Nihilism... and one has to wonder
what he meant by Nihilism....

Nihilism isn't about what we believe or don't believe, it also comes
from the ''results'' of our actions... for example, the west has
made the primary search or goal of existence, being the search for
wealth, power, titles, material possessions, fame.... and the result
of seeking these trinkets is nihilism... for they lead us nowhere...
all one gets from seeking wealth is wealth... nothing else...
and the search for fame can only lead to more fame or less fame,
nothing else.. and the search for material possessions and power
and titles can only lead us to those things.. and nothing else...
and as those trinkets are empty values or empty goals, they
are nihilistic...

and until we seek out goals or values, that have some value or worth,
we are practicing nihilism...
Nihilism is the emptiness of our goals and values...

Kropotkin

Now the Buddhist believed that there was no reality outside of
this ''Ultimate reality'' this "Unchangeable reality''
which meant that there was no other fixed or permanent reality as
in bodies or objects.. everything is change and any/all change is
not the ''Ultimate reality'' which is similar to Christian theology...
and one of the things the west did better than the east is to
explain how this division occurred... how come we suffer from
rebirth over and over again? how did this state of affairs occur?
what started it and why? How did human beings become separated
from this "Ultimate reality'' or "unchangeable reality?''
Is there a ''Adam and eve'' story hiding in eastern/Indian philosophy?

Kropotkin

I think we can start with a thought experiment...

what if, what if there is no ''Ultimate reality'' behind us..
what if there is no such thing as an ''Unchangeable reality''
as is thought by both the east and west....

one such observation would suggest that we have been
searching, seeking the wrong thing since, well since the
beginning of both eastern and western philosophy...
if there is no "Ultimate reality'' behind us, and only
the brief, changeable reality that is existence....
NOW WHAT?

Virtually all philosophy and theology and science depends on
their being an ''Ultimate reality'' behind the things we see and believe...

what if, what if what we see is exactly what we get? What if there is nothing
else beyond or outside of the reality we see?

I think part of the problem lies in our assumptions....
even if we are atheists, there is an assumption to
our way of thinking and actions....that we can pursue wealth
and power and material possessions because consciously or
unconsciously we think that in the end, that we will be saved..
somehow, in some way....that our final redemption is what makes
our lifelong pursuit of wealth and power and fame and titles
and materials possessions, worth it... because we will be saved
in any case...I think that is the underlying assumption that
lays beneath our pursuit of trinkets... that somehow we will be
saved, meet our salvation.. even if we are not religious....

this idea of salvation is a very strong one in human beings...
the entire basis of religions is here... in this idea of salvation...
perhaps the primary question we ask ourselves is, how am I to be saved?
Whether or not we realize it.... that question underlies everything we do
as human beings... how am I to be saved?

by faith or god or country or love, family wife children.....
or religion or philosophy or guns... how am I to be saved?

and that question only makes sense if, if we assume that there is something
outside of, or beyond us... that there is an ''Unchangeable reality'' beyond us...
because what can save us if it exists in this existence? the only path forward
is to put our faith, our hope in this "Ultimate reality'' if, if we correctly
understand what it takes to save us....


Kropotkin

in both the east and west, begin in the same place...
a negative viewpoint of human beings.. for example,
Christianity begins with the concept that human beings
are born with sin....that is a negative view of people..
that we automatically born of sin.. and we cannot escape
that.. all we can do is seek forgiveness for being born in
sin... that is about as negative viewpoint of human beings
as one can find...

and in the east, virtually all of Indian philosophy holds to
suffering as human existence and escaping suffering
as the goal of human beings... once again, a rather negative
vision of what it means to be human... and once again,
I reject this viewpoint as being negative.... just like the west idea
of sin being the original nature of human beings...I reject it...

and this leads us to a rather obvious question, if human existence
isn't about sin or about suffering, then what is it about?

I hold to this idea that human existence is about reaching our
potential, our possibilities....

what am I to do, given my possibilities of existence...
early in my life, I played sports... I played baseball and I ran
cross-country and track and I climbed mountains.... ...
and I was trying to become the best baseball player I could be
and I didn't try to set a world record in track.. I wasn't very good,
but I could run my best time... my best mile time was 4:53, not
very good, but I wasn't trying to break the world record, I was
trying to be the best runner I could possibly be.. so, my goal was to
run a 4:50 or even break into the 4:40's.. if I could...
and because of physical events, a couple of surgeries, I was no longer
able to run or climb mountains or lift weights...

so my goal changed from physical acts like sports to mental acts
like philosophy... and one of my possibilities was to be the greatest
philosopher ever... and so every day, every single day, I try to reach that
goal, that possibility... have I? I can't say.. only history will be able to judge
me.. and of course, when history talks, the person is usually dead, so I will never
actually know if I was or wasn't a great philosopher... and so I await history verdict...

as for me.. I still seek out what is possible for me as a philosopher...
and to be a better philosopher today than I was yesterday.. and to
take that philosophy and turn myself into a better human being
today, then I was yesterday... and so it goes.....

Kropotkin

Even when the need is to transmit rather than receive, some incoming may find a toehold.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:27 pm
and in the east, virtually all of Indian philosophy holds to
suffering as human existence and escaping suffering
as the goal of human beings... once again, a rather negative
vision of what it means to be human... and once again,
I reject this viewpoint as being negative.... just like the west idea
of sin being the original nature of human beings...I reject it...

and this leads us to a rather obvious question, if human existence
isn't about sin or about suffering, then what is it about?

Bitterness is borne of frustration, both are aspects of dukkha (suffering).

The Four Nobel Truths do acknowledge that suffering borne of ignorance, attachment, and delusion is part of human nature. However, while suffering is part of human nature, the nature of mind is clarity.

Buddha’s teachings are based on human nature, and the purpose of the teachings is to reveal the nature of mind. Because suffering is a powerful aspect of human nature that is recognizable by everyone, suffering is a suitable universal subject for teaching the nature of mind, which is clarity.

The path out of suffering is not Escape.

The path out of suffering is Clarity.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 3:54 pm Even when the need is to transmit rather than receive, some incoming may find a toehold.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:27 pm
and in the east, virtually all of Indian philosophy holds to
suffering as human existence and escaping suffering
as the goal of human beings... once again, a rather negative
vision of what it means to be human... and once again,
I reject this viewpoint as being negative.... just like the west idea
of sin being the original nature of human beings...I reject it...

and this leads us to a rather obvious question, if human existence
isn't about sin or about suffering, then what is it about?

Bitterness is borne of frustration, both are aspects of dukkha (suffering).

The Four Nobel Truths do acknowledge that suffering borne of ignorance, attachment, and delusion is part of human nature. However, while suffering is part of human nature, the nature of mind is clarity.

Buddha’s teachings are based on human nature, and the purpose of the teachings is to reveal the nature of mind. Because suffering is a powerful aspect of human nature that is recognizable by everyone, suffering is a suitable universal subject for teaching the nature of mind, which is clarity.

The path out of suffering is not Escape.

The path out of suffering is Clarity.

K: I am not even sure that ''suffering'' is something that we must ''escape''
from.. I was born with a severe hearing loss and today, I am legally deaf...
by all accounts, that should be counted as suffering... and yet, I don't feel that
way.. my hearing loss just is...and while hearing certainly is very useful to have,
it isn't life threatening.. who I am today, has been formed in large part by this
hearing loss... one could, I suppose, speculate that the reason I engage in philosophy
is to explain or justify my hearing loss...today, I know that my hearing loss
is due to the randomness of the universe...it was a truly random, chance event...
nothing more, nothing less...but because of this hearing loss, I was forced to
dig deep into who I was, am and will be...my hearing loss deepen me...
and that is the ''value'' of suffering... everyone comes out of suffering differently...
the loss of a parent or child, and I lost my father years ago.. adds depth to
our understanding of who we are and the nature of the universe...we might not
and probably don't understand the impact of suffering on who we are, but it
is there...the very nature of those events of suffering, loss, pain, agony,
disease, old age and finally death, of those around me and my own coming death...
at my age, 64, death is no longer some theoretical possibility...
it is staring me in the face... the very way I write here is a response
to my future death... I try to write every single day about some sort
of thought I have about philosophical matters because I feel
death hot on my trail.. and so I write out my thoughts before I
can no longer write.. and that fear haunts me every second of every day...
who am I if I can no longer philosophize? age brings into sharp focus
the limited time one has... On Tuesday, I am having yet another
medical procedure.. I am not worried about it, it is just another
brick in the wall that I am growing older...and my time is short...
and my day to day, old age suffering, brings me to the point of
knowing that I must finish my task before its too late...

the suffering we all have brings us to the point of understanding
the limited nature of our lives.. and quite often our suffering brings
about changes in how we think about ourselves and how we act....

there is an (for a lack of a better term) wisdom to suffering...
for it is not from the pursuit of wisdom or the search for redemption
that we engage with theology or philosophy, but from suffering..
we suffer and we practice philosophy to work out what it means
to suffer and how to lessen it... but I say unto you, suffering,
the various actions that cause us to suffer, may be the greatest
educational tool we human beings have...I suffer and I learn from
that.... it might be said that experience is simply an understanding
of how to avoid suffering, by telling us what caused us to suffer
in our past and how to avoid it today..... suffering is not
something to be denied or devalued, but something that we all must
go through and it deserves to be praised...for the wisdom that
suffering gives us is knowledge that is the most powerful
wisdom we might have in our lives....


Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:06 pmfor the wisdom that
suffering gives us is knowledge that is the most powerful
wisdom we might have in our lives....

Kropotkin

Peace-of-mind is the most powerful wisdom. Peace-of-mind is bliss. It is Clarity. Being-consciousness-bliss ... satchitananda.

Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is found in the lower animal realm of fear, confusion, and pain ... all aspects of suffering.

The wisdom of suffering is that it teaches the path out of suffering.

Q: What does a "mentally ill" person want more than anything else?
A: Peace of mind.

*

Thank you for sharing your personal thoughts about death advising action, thought and view.

Another classic Disney tale about to be destroyed; Bambi faces woke overhaul
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/09/30 ... l-1400366/

No … not Bambi. Why don’t they just leave it alone. Nothing is sacred to the woke. Not even Bambi. To the woke everything is wrong and must be changed. Even Bambi.

Death and its threat is a key element of the Bambi Story of innocence and enhances the life in the story, and probably the lives of real deer.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:59 am Another classic Disney tale about to be destroyed; Bambi faces woke overhaul
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/09/30 ... l-1400366/

No … not Bambi. Why don’t they just leave it alone. Nothing is sacred to the woke. Not even Bambi. To the woke everything is wrong and must be changed. Even Bambi.

Death and its threat is a key element of the Bambi Story of innocence and enhances the life in the story, and probably the lives of real deer.

K: ''WOKE" not at all... its imagination that is lacking in our modern world...
''WOKE'' has nothing to do with it.... Hollywood or its writing equivalent,
NY, will not release anything that has any creativity or wit or is smart in
any way, shape or form.... the only goal is to make money.. any other
point of view is rejected....and that is a shame... for real works of ART
are being rejected because they are projected not to make any money...
and that is the goal to be used.. will it make me money....and that is
the point of view of both Hollywood and NY....

Kropotkin

“The primary effect that Stoicism aims to bring about is apatheia, which means to not be disturbed by suffering. This does not mean that one will be free from the effects of suffering entirely, but rather that one is in a state of equanimity and knows what to do in situations that would otherwise harm one’s soul, or mind.” - Dermot M. Griffin

viewtopic.php?t=40939

So basically stoicism is like sellin out then. Like fuck it I don't even care anymore u can have it. I'm good.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:39 pm So basically stoicism is like sellin out then. Like fuck it I don't even care anymore u can have it. I'm good.

That statement assumes that the stoic path out of suffering is to not care.

Quite often a stoic cares too much, thus the need for control. Control that follows from equanimity is the best since it doesn't cause inner conflict. Coerced control just leads to resentment.

There is great wisdom in your words, Forum Walker.

I'm totally not being facetious either.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 4:35 pm There is great wisdom in your words, Forum Walker.

I'm totally not being facetious either.