Philosophy Now Forum

Morality can't come from God, can it?

When there is a claim that an already known concept like morality comes from God, we must then ask ourselves, well, if morality comes from God, then where does God come from.

This is pointless and senseless circular reasoning, because for any concept to be known at all, every concept must first have to exist, must already be here within knowing knowledge that is already, evidently, always available.

So if the claim that... what is always readily available here in the knowledge we already have, has come from some thing or from somewhere other than what is already here, then that is a pointless and non-sensical claim to make. Only sense can make sense. Not non-sense.

morality comes from other people who want to control your actions

-Imp

From people tryng to prevent problems, get good stuff, get everyone on the same page and control others. But then where does that stuff come from. Likes, dislikes, empathy, the flow of things (perhaps you can call that God), past attempts at creating heuristics, insights, intuition, noting consequences, guesswork, human traits, traits of any entities involved beyond humans, traditions, nature/culture which equals nature, the Big Bang, past trauma....

It's human behavior that is such as it is becuz it happens to maximize the survival rate of the individuals and groups who behave that way. Always exceptions tho... I'm doing averages and generalities, which is what counts when examining the whole species over history.

First there are gene mutations that create the particular body of the organism, then the behavior (whatever it is) that most tends to keep that particular organism alive becomes more common in the group's individuals as the individual passes those genes on through reproduction.

That behavior we call 'morality'. That's a purely descriptive title and I in no way use it prescriptively.

In other words, we don't have a society of mass murderers and serial killers becuz they don't tend to reproduce very well. What they do is not an evolutionarily stable strategy.

I'm not saying what they do is 'right' or 'wrong', tho. That's prescriptive. Alls I'm saying is there is an example of how morality evolves through the trying and testing of behaviors that work in a kind of non zero-sum way in groups.

I wouldn't say to an SK 'u are wrong'. That's nonsense. I would however say 'you are in great danger and unlikely to pass those genes on bro. you've pissed a lot of people off and they're comin for ya.'

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:23 pm It's human behavior that is such as it is becuz it happens to maximize the survival rate of the individuals and groups who behave that way.

Or it doesn't. We're a young species with a variety or morals.

promethean75 wrote:That behavior we call 'morality'. That's a purely descriptive title and I in no way use it prescriptively.

Morality refers to what is right and what is wrong to do, it does NOT refer to what someone thinks is right and wrong.

That's why people who say that morality "comes from God" make more sense than those who say that it is "naturally evolved behavior".

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:47 pm morality comes from other people who want to control your actions

-Imp

Half truth. Why do they want to control your actions? Why do I want to stop anybody from speaking falsehood?

It destroys/erases collective memory.

The very thing we humans need for effective adaptation.

Without quality information people can't make good decisions.

Oh i see the disconnect M. Anderson. What i mean by 'moral' is behavior that is socially adaptive, oriented and derived, not just any arbitrary behavior. For example, the guy who walks by joe and does nothing is not exhibiting moral behavior. The guy who smiles, says 'hi', punches him in the face, robs him, or gives him his car as a random act of kindness, is exhibiting moral behavior.

Magnus Anderson wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:38 pm That's why people who say that morality "comes from God" make more sense than those who say that it is "naturally evolved behavior".

Why does it "make more sense" to believe that morality comes from God? What about reality better fits the picture of a God actually existing in the world?

Or do you mean to say it's "better" to believe there is a God directing the world than to NOT know whether there is a God directing the world or not? And if it's better to believe there is a God directing the world, then why is that?

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:43 pm Oh i see the disconnect M. Anderson. What i mean by 'moral' is behavior that is socially adaptive, oriented and derived, not just any arbitrary behavior. For example, the guy who walks by joe and does nothing is not exhibiting moral behavior. The guy who smiles, says 'hi', punches him in the face, robs him, or gives him his car as a random act of kindness, is exhibiting moral behavior.

Lying about what is moral and immoral is also immoral behaviour.

Even when it's harmless (such as playing a silly philosophical game) you are still lying.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:59 pm Why does it "make more sense" to believe that morality comes from God? What about reality better fits the picture of a God actually existing in the world?

Because it's the simplest possible explanation. A tought terminating cliche. It's one of those deep, deep questions that ultimately can't be answered completely. So if you don't have a few years of your life to waste down the rabbit hole - settle for the cliche.

At some point you simply have to acceps THAT there is a difference between right and wrong. True and False and that logic is the foundation of thought and navigating and understanding the world.

If you don't even grant this much, you can't make absolutely any decisions. About anything.

Trying to reason in any logical system which equates True and False results in analysis paralysis.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:59 pm Or do you mean to say it's "better" to believe there is a God directing the world than to NOT know whether there is a God directing the world or not? And if it's better to believe there is a God directing the world, then why is that?

Better is subjective.

Is there a difference between True and False? Yes.
What's the difference? That's a deep question. Fill in your favourite story.

"Why does it "make more sense" to believe that morality comes from God?"

Becuz this solves what Agnus Manderson believes to be a problem; that morality can't just be what we think is right, but has to be about what is objectively right.

If there's a god, the nature of rightness and wrongness would be determined by that god, and we don't have to worry about what anyone thinks. Spares us the trouble of having to debate about it.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:31 pm Becuz this solves what Agnus Manderson believes to be a problem; that morality can't just be what we think is right, but has to be about what is objectively right.

That's what "objecive" means, cupcake.

It's not what YOU think is wrong. It's what WE think is wrong.

And the system we use to draw the dividing line in our own minds is called Logic.
It has (at least) two categories.

Wrong and not Wrong. And some of the stuff in the "not Wrong" category is even right.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:31 pm If there's a god, the nature of rightness and wrongness would be determined by that god, and we don't have to worry about what anyone thinks. Spares us the trouble of having to debate about it.

If there's a God you also don't need to distinguish between true and false. Saves the trouble of having to debate about it.
Choice sucks. It requires too much thought/effort. Let God decide.

Only God is an emergent idea that has absolutely no influence on our decision-making.

1. You have to make a choice: A or not A.
2. One of those choices is wrong.

Who decides which one is which? God does. Our collective consciousness.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:59 pm Why does it "make more sense" to believe that morality comes from God? What about reality better fits the picture of a God actually existing in the world?

Because it's the simplest possible explanation. A tought terminating cliche. It's one of those deep, deep questions that ultimately can't be answered completely. So if you don't have a few years of your life to waste down the rabbit hole - settle for the cliche.

So at some point you simply have to acceps THAT there is a difference between right and wrong. True and False.

If you don't even grant this much, you can't make absolutely any decisions about the world.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:59 pm Or do you mean to say it's "better" to believe there is a God directing the world than to NOT know whether there is a God directing the world or not? And if it's better to believe there is a God directing the world, then why is that?

Better is subjective.

Is there a difference between True and False? Yes.
What's the difference? That's a deep question. Fill in your favourite story.

I'm agnostic. I have nowhere claimed there is no such thing as true and false. It sounds to my ears that what you want is someone who will do something with the confidence that what they are doing could not possibly be the wrong thing to do because if there is a God and they believe that, then there is no wrong that they can do. Otherwise, I don't know what disadvantage there is in someone who thinks that something can be true and false but is unsure if there is a God versus someone who thinks that something can be true and false but is sure that God exists.

However, as I have said, enjoy your power. I want no part of it other than to just have to deal with the consequences. There's nothing more for me to competently do in this world. Staying out of the way and not fucking things up is plenty difficult enough for me to accomplish. You all can have at it. If there's a God, then as far as I'm concerned, putting me in this world was God's mistake.