Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:11 am Would that Atheists tended to stop at "Well, I, personally, don't have any evidence of God." How nice if they were than honest, moral and truthful. But many are not. Many want to go on to say, "...you can't have any evidence either," or even "Nobody can ever have any evidence," or "God does not exist."
What else can one make of a claim like that of Dawkins, that Theism is a "delusion." (his word, famously) Or what about when Hitchens goes about claiming it "poisons everything." Lovely. The desire of Atheists to evangelize their disbelief is considerable. And their patience with the idea that some people do not share their personal ignorance is often zero.

But Atheist dogma requires evidence. And they have none. So their disbelief is ideological, not merely personal. It's a dogma, based on nothing in particular, that they want to spread. They love to mock anybody who believes there even might be a God, and call them "unscientific" or "irrational" -- all the while, being absolutely unscientific and irrational themselves.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:46 am Are gods illusions? I don't know, is Germany an illusion? Is Apple corporation an illusion? Is the value of a dollar an illusion? All four exist inter-subjectively, not objectively.

If the definition of "illusion" in this thread is: does not exist objectively, then I suppose gods (and the rest) are illusions, but most lay persons consider a dollar to have objective value (even though it doesn't) and Germany to exist objectively, even though it doesn't.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:46 am Are gods illusions? I don't know, is Germany an illusion? Is Apple corporation an illusion? Is the value of a dollar an illusion? All four exist inter-subjectively, not objectively.

If the definition of "illusion" in this thread is: does not exist objectively, then I suppose gods (and the rest) are illusions, but most lay persons consider a dollar to have objective value (even though it doesn't) and Germany to exist objectively, even though it doesn't.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:29 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:46 am Are gods illusions? I don't know, is Germany an illusion? Is Apple corporation an illusion? Is the value of a dollar an illusion? All four exist inter-subjectively, not objectively.

If the definition of "illusion" in this thread is: does not exist objectively, then I suppose gods (and the rest) are illusions, but most lay persons consider a dollar to have objective value (even though it doesn't) and Germany to exist objectively, even though it doesn't.

I can go along with Germany not existing objectively. But money seems to have objective value. I would come at that in two ways: 1) First, nothing would have objective value, given that value is subjective, so it's a bit of an oxymoron. So for this point, sure, but the implicit assumption that other things do have objective value, that money is an exception or at least cant be put with other things in that category, I can't agree with. 2) The way people react is a part of reality. I go to stores and money leads to effects. Money works, at least right now, pre-collapse or pre-nomoremoney. it works as well as a hammer, though for other tasks.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:39 pm An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 am It is so philosophical immature to ask a not-a-theist to show evidence [empirical-rational] why they are not-a-theist.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amBeing critical thinkers, rational and wise, the reason why non-theists are deliberately not-a-theist(s) is because there are no direct evidences [empirical-rational] to convince them that God exists as real, e.g. the moon [and the like] is real based on empirical-rational evidence that can be verified and justified by a human-based scientific FSK as real and true.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amas one grow older, the neurons that inhibit irrationality e.g. God existence, atrophied

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amExperiences of God can also be trigger with a "God Helmet" using magnetic waves directed a certain parts of the brain.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 am There are so much evidence that drugs, hallucinogens and other chemicals that can trigger the experience of the being of God, thus leading many to believe in theism.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amI was once a theist for a long time and personally, have had god-linked altered states of consciousness; later I discovered they were all in the brain; there is no real God out there outside the human brain.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:29 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:39 pm An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not.

Why do you believe in objective identities?

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:39 pm An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not.
I can trade a dollar for an apple if (and only if) enough people believe that the dollar is worth the value of an apple. Otherwise it is a piece of paper (while the apple is an apple).

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 6:15 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 am It is so philosophical immature to ask a not-a-theist to show evidence [empirical-rational] why they are not-a-theist.

Yes... it is absurd... much like if a believer were to say: 'Show evidence that the Loch Ness monster doesn't ride a bicycle.' Then trying to validate their belief/claims by adding: 'Well, you have to WANT to believe in it, or you won't see it.' Well, OF COURSE that's how it works.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amBeing critical thinkers, rational and wise, the reason why non-theists are deliberately not-a-theist(s) is because there are no direct evidences [empirical-rational] to convince them that God exists as real, e.g. the moon [and the like] is real based on empirical-rational evidence that can be verified and justified by a human-based scientific FSK as real and true.

Yes, if there isn't direct (and 'RESPONSIVE' evidence), then it is imagination perpetuated and supported by will. The absence of evidence can only lead to excuses like: 'Well, then, it must not be God's will', or 'We're not supposed to question God', or 'It will only be revealed to those who are ready or worthy'.

Whatever innate collective connection and awareness that we might tap into doesn't require or need any of this religious showbiz stuff. It is continually demonstrated that much of mankind prefers movies/stories (the more, the better) as compared to actually living more observantly in-the-present-moment.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amas one grow older, the neurons that inhibit irrationality e.g. God existence, atrophied

And desperation and fear may increase, driving one to seek comfort and supposed answers.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amExperiences of God can also be trigger with a "God Helmet" using magnetic waves directed a certain parts of the brain.

Oh wow... cool.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 am There are so much evidence that drugs, hallucinogens and other chemicals that can trigger the experience of the being of God, thus leading many to believe in theism.

And it can also turn theists into non-theists by triggering awareness beyond human constructs.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 amI was once a theist for a long time and personally, have had god-linked altered states of consciousness; later I discovered they were all in the brain; there is no real God out there outside the human brain.

I grew up in the Christian tradition and embraced it fully because it was where I was being directed by adults. I, too, later discovered how powerful and convincing and creative the brain can be... to the point of manufacturing all-consuming 'realities'.

I think there is more clarity and capability by stepping out of all that brain noise. I have practiced doing that... and just seeing and listening with a quiet, observant mind. I've received insights and sudden 'answers' at those times. It feels quite powerful... like a frequency that a human being like myself can only do for short periods of time because it's like a gushing firehose of free-flowing information. I've also gotten the sense that it's not crucial for me to do (because there's nothing wrong with being in this human life as-it-is -- that's just what we're doing right now), however, the frequency outside the noise is accessible if I want it. The more noise, the more disconnection from all else... and I do like connecting, so I try to limit the noise (no Facebook or social media or skewed News sources... I only indulge in this noisy forum for fun and practicing and processing).

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:39 pm Yeah money is such a standard thing in everyday life that it seems to have objective value. But it only has value because humans believe it has value.

That is, the value exists in our minds. If a certain number of people lose faith in a currency it loses value, which can end up worthless, ie without value.

An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not. I can trade a dollar for an apple if (and only if) enough people believe that the dollar is worth the value of an apple. Otherwise it is a piece of paper (while the apple is an apple).

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:13 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:29 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:39 pm An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not.

Why do you believe in objective identities?

I don't. You can call an apple anything you want (as long as you accept the communication implications of your choice).

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 1:50 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:39 pm An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not.
I can trade a dollar for an apple if (and only if) enough people believe that the dollar is worth the value of an apple. Otherwise it is a piece of paper (while the apple is an apple).

WHO ARE YOU to be SO certain,
"An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not."
Are you an omnipotent & omniscient God?

As demonstrated by Kant, there is no such thing as an apple-by-itself, apple-in-itself, thing-in-itself or X-in-itself existing absolutely independent of the human conditions i.e. human-mind-independent.

To a sole-sonar-bat or dolphin 'that apple is an apple' is merely an impermanent bundle of sonar images.
All other non-human living things will realize and perceive that bundle of particles relative to their realization and perception system.

Humans are more-animals than being more-human, thus very fallible and do not have the all-powerful knowledge to claim
"An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not" existing independent of the human conditions.

The most you can claim is,
"An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not"
because we humans collectively [the majority] said so.
Thus ultimately "an apple is an apple" cannot be absolutely mind-independent.

There is no difference in the fundamental existence of an apple and that of a dollar, the difference is only in the degree of objectivity as conditioned by the human conditions and its specific human-based FSK.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:16 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:39 pm Yeah money is such a standard thing in everyday life that it seems to have objective value. But it only has value because humans believe it has value.

One of the things I said was that this is not restricted to money, which seemed implicit in your post. That money was some kind of exception.
What has value that is not dependent on a subjective evaluation?

That is, the value exists in our minds. If a certain number of people lose faith in a currency it loses value, which can end up worthless, ie without value.

And in regard to my second point, then at that point it will no longer have the value it had. Aren't the behaviors and attitudes of humans part of objective reality?

An apple is an apple whether people believe it is an apple or not. I can trade a dollar for an apple if (and only if) enough people believe that the dollar is worth the value of an apple. Otherwise it is a piece of paper (while the apple is an apple).

You're saying a hypothetical somehow disproves the existence of the value of the dollar now. So, your imagined future situation (which I agree is possible) means that dollars do not really, objectively have value now.

If you treated dollars as if they have no value not only could this cause, for example, your spouse to be upset with you, but also you spouse would be correct in considering you not objective and irrational.

People could one day decide that the sugars in apples are detrimental to health, or in some postapocalytic scenario that apples are, well, the devil's fruit - not so far fetched and unfamiliar. So, apples lose value as products and are no longer a food source. Yes, values can change.

But here we are and dollars have objective value.

I can exchange my dollars for things you consider objectively valuable, whatever that phrase means. Beliefs are real things (or processes or phenomena) In my world they are parts of causal chains, real ones.

Lots of things are dependent on other things for their qualities. Trees will die if the sun gets too hot. This doesn't mean trees aren't real.
You are proposing that in the future and yes it could be quite soon, people will change and dollars will no longer have value. Sure. At that point they won't have value. Changes in what is real can change the objective properties of things.

A tree is a tree unless conditions change to the degree or of that kind such that it isn't a tree.
Likewise apples.

Generally I don't think objective value works as a concept. But I don't think money is the exception. If there is objective value, money has it now.