Philosophy Now Forum

philosophical pessimism has had a very long history in philosophy...
in fact, of the major schools of ancient Greek philosophy,
three are pessimism in action, Cynicism and Stoicism and skepticism...
while the argument can be made that epicureanism is also pessimistic...

and in reading philosophy, pessimism waxes and wanes until it reaches
its height in Schopenhauer... Schopenhauer practically makes
pessimism into an Art form...and I certainly can't call existentialism
a "positive" philosophy... and Nietzsche clearly is a pessimistic
philosopher...but then the fact is it is easier, by far, to curse
the darkness than to light a light...

I too, have many times engaged in philosophical pessimism...
and bemoaned the fate of existence being dark and twisted....
it is easier to curse the darkness....

so let us, today at least, not curse the darkness and light a candle...

in German Idealism, the world is what we make of it... the world is a
mental construct... which means we can construct a positive world
just as easily as we can construct a pessimistic world...

and in existentialism... comes words like angst, despair, thrown into..
the existentialist paints a dark and despairing world... but that side,
the side of cursing the darkness is just one side of existence... and in
philosophical pessimism, you never hear about love or joy or happiness
or the wonders of ART or of nature or the beauty of flowers or the sunsets...

but in the end, it is a better thing to be alive than not to be...
yes, there is suffering and hate and prejudice and bigotry...
but we can, once again, curse the darkness or, or we can light
a candle...having seen many dark moments in my life, I can say
with certainty that those dark moments never last long...

yes, there is suffering... we have disease and old age and finally death...
and you know what, those things, as bad as they are, are simply
the price of admission into life... I have taken truly horrible moments
in my life that were a punch in the stomach and outlasted them.. until
I turn that pain and agony into something else.... the act of creativity,
be it in ART or the creation of philosophy can transform that pain into
something else...that inner pain can take the journey into being pain into
being transformed into a goal or meaning in life....that is what it does...
it transform our inner life into something solid and real....
and in doing so, we are redeemed from pain and suffering...
or said another way, nothing is forever... even that inner pain and agony..
if we can transform it into something else...via ART or philosophy...

and I am sure even more life shattering moments are coming...
and yet, I am not afraid.. because I will survive those too...
I just have to outlast that pain and agony to be able to turn them
into the act of creation.. be it ART or be it Philosophy...

sometimes, sometimes the pain and agony become too much and
we just stop... it becomes too much and we just can't take it anymore...
and yet, we must simply outlast the pain by transforming that pain
and agony into some act of creation.... believe me when I say,
I too have been close, very, very close to giving up...
the simple thing to do is to quit, to give up..... but the secret
to existence is this... to simply be stronger than the pain, to outlast it...
that's it... that is the secret to life... and its nothing more complicated than that...

to hold out until we can convert that pain and suffering into something else....
by ART or philosophy or some other third way...

it is easy, oh so easy to be philosophically pessimistic...
but try the harder path and light a candle....

Kropotkin

"Pessimism" comes from a mind that is approaching the end of its ability to exist. "Pessimism" comes from societies that have ceased to create for whatever reason and simply maintain. And maintenance is always a perpetual battle against decay.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 4:21 pm "Pessimism" comes from a mind that is approaching the end of its ability to exist. "Pessimism" comes from societies that have ceased to create for whatever reason and simply maintain. And maintenance is always a perpetual battle against decay.

K: this seems to be a little vague... could you bring out some examples
that make this clearer...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:04 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 4:21 pm "Pessimism" comes from a mind that is approaching the end of its ability to exist. "Pessimism" comes from societies that have ceased to create for whatever reason and simply maintain. And maintenance is always a perpetual battle against decay.

K: this seems to be a little vague... could you bring out some examples
that make this clearer...

Kropotkin

Optimism is commonly associated with progress. Pessimism is commonly associated with decline. Is something that is progressing going to decline? Is something that is declining going to continue to decline forever? Pessimism is the thought that all comes to an end. Optimism is the thought that there is a future. Pessimism worships the past. Optimism worships the future. Life occurs in the present. All three are aspects in and of time.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:14 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:04 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 4:21 pm "Pessimism" comes from a mind that is approaching the end of its ability to exist. "Pessimism" comes from societies that have ceased to create for whatever reason and simply maintain. And maintenance is always a perpetual battle against decay.

K: this seems to be a little vague... could you bring out some examples
that make this clearer...

Kropotkin

Optimism is commonly associated with progress. Pessimism is commonly associated with decline. Is something that is progressing going to decline? Is something that is declining going to continue to decline forever? Pessimism is the thought that all comes to an end. Optimism is the thought that there is a future. Pessimism worships the past. Optimism worships the future. Life occurs in the present. All three are aspects in and of time.

K: under this definition, conservatives are pessimistic and liberals are
optimistic...for we liberals focus on the future and the conservatives
focus on the past... under your own definition, we, if we want to
light a candle, and not curse the darkness, must become liberals...
and focus on what is to come, not what has happened......

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:35 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:14 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:04 pm

K: this seems to be a little vague... could you bring out some examples
that make this clearer...

Kropotkin

Optimism is commonly associated with progress. Pessimism is commonly associated with decline. Is something that is progressing going to decline? Is something that is declining going to continue to decline forever? Pessimism is the thought that all comes to an end. Optimism is the thought that there is a future. Pessimism worships the past. Optimism worships the future. Life occurs in the present. All three are aspects in and of time.

K: under this definition, conservatives are pessimistic and liberals are
optimistic...for we liberals focus on the future and the conservatives
focus on the past... under your own definition, we, if we want to
light a candle, and not curse the darkness, must become liberals...
and focus on what is to come, not what has happened......

Kropotkin

I don't know. I think in the present but live in the past. I am told the future brings an end.

and you have been lied to... I am old, my days are soon to end,
and even at my age, I believe in the future far more than the past
or present... for in the future lies our possibilities of existence..
''what we can be'' lies in the future, not in the past...

being old, I don't have as many possibilities as I once did,
but still, they are there... I can't run a mile any more or
climb rocks like I once did, but I can become a better person,
a better human being, and as I have noted more than once,
I can become a better philosopher.. I think I have the possibility
of being one of the great philosophers of all time... but that is
a one possibility I have, I have others... and so do you....

but Kropotkin, you are insane, trying to be one of the greatest
philosophers of all time... and I ask, why not? what is stopping me?
and I ask you, what is stopping you from reaching your own
possibilities? the correct answer is, you.... so, embrace the future as
devotedly as you embrace the past or the present...

the future is the one motion we do have control over, we can't change
the past or the present, but we can change the future...
so, what future do you want to see?

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:55 pm and you have been lied to... I am old, my days are soon to end,
and even at my age, I believe in the future far more than the past
or present... for in the future lies our possibilities of existence..
''what we can be'' lies in the future, not in the past...

being old, I don't have as many possibilities as I once did,
but still, they are there... I can't run a mile any more or
climb rocks like I once did, but I can become a better person,
a better human being, and as I have noted more than once,
I can become a better philosopher.. I think I have the possibility
of being one of the great philosophers of all time... but that is
a one possibility I have, I have others... and so do you....

but Kropotkin, you are insane, trying to be one of the greatest
philosophers of all time... and I ask, why not? what is stopping me?
and I ask you, what is stopping you from reaching your own
possibilities? the correct answer is, you.... so, embrace the future as
devotedly as you embrace the past or the present...

the future is the one motion we do have control over, we can't change
the past or the present, but we can change the future...
so, what future do you want to see?

Kropotkin

Right now, I want to see a future that goes further than an ecological end, that doesn't involve people around the world killing each other over their disputes. Maybe when that is accomplished I can die in peace instead of agony and shame. But I cannot ward off death, non-existence, or whatever. And I am paralyzed with fear over it when I think about it. I have always been so since seeing a movie or film piece regarding the end of the world in elementary school. I suppose it was during the Cold War that that film was made and shown to me. But I cannot erase it from my memory. And I don't want to be lied to. And I cannot not think about that which I 'ought' not think about. I seek the truth and only from that can I find wisdom that isn't rooted in foolishness.

And then I heard the phrase, "philosophy is dead."

And after that, I had no purpose in life. No hope of finding truth, wisdom, or answers. And I have remained largely dormant since that.

Gary Childress:

Right now, I want to see a future that goes further than an ecological end, that doesn't involve people around the world killing each other over their disputes. Maybe when that is accomplished I can die in peace instead of agony and shame. But I cannot ward off death, non-existence, or whatever. And I am paralyzed with fear over it when I think about it. I have always been so since seeing a movie or film piece regarding the end of the world in elementary school. I suppose it was during the Cold War that that film was made and shown to me. But I cannot erase it from my memory. And I don't want to be lied to. And I cannot not think about that which I 'ought' not think about. I seek the truth and only from that can I find wisdom that isn't rooted in foolishness.

K: ahh, I too was once frozen by the fear of death.. but then I realized that
I will die... and there is no escape and that idea has freed me...
I will die and I will suffer and I will grow old and I will face disease
and hurt... and there is nothing, nada I can do about that... ok,
so, am I to be frozen over the fact that I have no control, zero
control over old age, death, suffering disease? I have no control
which means I can just ignore them.. later today, I am seeing a doctor
about some pain in my side which I have had a while... now, I could be
frozen by the fact it COULD be cancer, or some other dire disease..
but the fact is, it is just as likely to be gas as anything else...
and I have no control over that... so, I don't worry about it...

it is what it is... and I continue to write and think and read about
philosophy... and that is good.... I don't let the events in my life
control or dominate my life.. I may die of a heart attack at any moment,
the risk factors are there for me... oh well, I do what I can and
I don't worry about the rest.. it won't help me in any way, shape or
form to worry about such stuff... I live both in the moment
and in the future... because at some point, all will have left is
death.. no more possibilities other than dying will exists for me...
and I am racing to write and read and think before that day comes...
I am running as fast as I can to "do philosophy" before I no longer can
''do philosophy" it is a race I will lose, but so the fuck what....
that doesn't matter... win or lose... the point is to engage with what
I believe to be important...and that is philosophy...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 6:32 pm Gary Childress:

Right now, I want to see a future that goes further than an ecological end, that doesn't involve people around the world killing each other over their disputes. Maybe when that is accomplished I can die in peace instead of agony and shame. But I cannot ward off death, non-existence, or whatever. And I am paralyzed with fear over it when I think about it. I have always been so since seeing a movie or film piece regarding the end of the world in elementary school. I suppose it was during the Cold War that that film was made and shown to me. But I cannot erase it from my memory. And I don't want to be lied to. And I cannot not think about that which I 'ought' not think about. I seek the truth and only from that can I find wisdom that isn't rooted in foolishness.

K: ahh, I too was once frozen by the fear of death.. but then I realized that
I will die... and there is no escape and that idea has freed me...
I will die and I will suffer and I will grow old and I will face disease
and hurt... and there is nothing, nada I can do about that... ok,
so, am I to be frozen over the fact that I have no control, zero
control over old age, death, suffering disease? I have no control
which means I can just ignore them.. later today, I am seeing a doctor
about some pain in my side which I have had a while... now, I could be
frozen by the fact it COULD be cancer, or some other dire disease..
but the fact is, it is just as likely to be gas as anything else...
and I have no control over that... so, I don't worry about it...

it is what it is... and I continue to write and think and read about
philosophy... and that is good.... I don't let the events in my life
control or dominate my life.. I may die of a heart attack at any moment,
the risk factors are there for me... oh well, I do what I can and
I don't worry about the rest.. it won't help me in any way, shape or
form to worry about such stuff... I live both in the moment
and in the future... because at some point, all will have left is
death.. no more possibilities other than dying will exists for me...
and I am racing to write and read and think before that day comes...
I am running as fast as I can to "do philosophy" before I no longer can
''do philosophy" it is a race I will lose, but so the fuck what....
that doesn't matter... win or lose... the point is to engage with what
I believe to be important...and that is philosophy...

Kropotkin

We're different people. It's probably best to leave it at that.

philosophical pessimism has had a very long history in philosophy...
in fact, of the major schools of ancient Greek philosophy,
three are pessimism in action, Cynicism and Stoicism and skepticism...
while the argument can be made that epicureanism is also pessimistic...

Stoicism isn't pessimistic.