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Progress is an advancement of a thing or its component qualities through time. But progress varies from item to item depending on what thing or quality is being observed.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:43 pm What is progress? Does it happen? And if it doesn't then is there only retribution to 'restore' justice when a wrong has been committed? And if there is no progress, then how did we come to live in a society with the technological marvels that we do?
Or is there progress?
But is progress for some progress for all if it comes at the expense of others? Or is there only ever conflict between subjective entities in this world? Is progress possible or impossible?commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:17 pmProgress is an advancement of a thing or its component qualities through time. But progress varies from item to item depending on what thing or quality is being observed.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:43 pm What is progress? Does it happen? And if it doesn't then is there only retribution to 'restore' justice when a wrong has been committed? And if there is no progress, then how did we come to live in a society with the technological marvels that we do?
Or is there progress?
For instance, in technology there is progress. In warfare there is progress. In racial tension there is little or no progress. And progress in one observer’s eyes may not be in someone else’s estimation, as in the case of the overturning of Roe.
I am lead to say that universal progress is not possible. Or perhaps only possible in exceptional cases, though Í can think of none.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:21 pmBut is progress for some progress for all if it comes at the expense of others? Or is there only ever conflict between subjective entities in this world? Is progress possible or impossible?commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:17 pmProgress is an advancement of a thing or its component qualities through time. But progress varies from item to item depending on what thing or quality is being observed.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:43 pm What is progress? Does it happen? And if it doesn't then is there only retribution to 'restore' justice when a wrong has been committed? And if there is no progress, then how did we come to live in a society with the technological marvels that we do?
Or is there progress?
For instance, in technology there is progress. In warfare there is progress. In racial tension there is little or no progress. And progress in one observer’s eyes may not be in someone else’s estimation, as in the case of the overturning of Roe.
If someone asked me that question, I would have to say I do not know. I can't think of any clear-cut cases of "progress" that did not involve some gaining at the expense of others. Perhaps there are such cases and I just haven't heard of them.commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:44 pmI am lead to say that universal progress is not possible. Or perhaps only possible in exceptional cases, though Í can think of none.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:21 pmBut is progress for some progress for all if it comes at the expense of others? Or is there only ever conflict between subjective entities in this world? Is progress possible or impossible?commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:17 pm
Progress is an advancement of a thing or its component qualities through time. But progress varies from item to item depending on what thing or quality is being observed.
For instance, in technology there is progress. In warfare there is progress. In racial tension there is little or no progress. And progress in one observer’s eyes may not be in someone else’s estimation, as in the case of the overturning of Roe.
How would you answer the questions if posed to you?
I look at it differently as I define progress as movement not solely positive movement.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:50 pmIf someone asked me that question, I would have to say I do not know. I can't think of any clear-cut cases of "progress" that did not involve some gaining at the expense of others. Perhaps there are such cases and I just haven't heard of them.commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:44 pmI am lead to say that universal progress is not possible. Or perhaps only possible in exceptional cases, though Í can think of none.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:21 pm
But is progress for some progress for all if it comes at the expense of others? Or is there only ever conflict between subjective entities in this world? Is progress possible or impossible?
How would you answer the questions if posed to you?
OK. So the Nazis were moving toward a goal. Eichman made sure the trains ran on time. Is whether the Nazis were right or not also "beside the point"?LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 4:56 pmI look at it differently as I define progress as movement not solely positive movement.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:50 pmIf someone asked me that question, I would have to say I do not know. I can't think of any clear-cut cases of "progress" that did not involve some gaining at the expense of others. Perhaps there are such cases and I just haven't heard of them.commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:44 pm
I am lead to say that universal progress is not possible. Or perhaps only possible in exceptional cases, though Í can think of none.
How would you answer the questions if posed to you?
Thus to me, due to memory of what works and doesn't work, humans make "progress" towards their goals by refining processes that move towards their goals. Whether they choose goals that an observer subjectively labels as good or bad is besides the point.
It depends on the subject matter of the discussion. If it is describing "good" progress the genocide part is germane, if it is a discussion on train schedules (alone) it is not. As I stipulated originally I don't define "progress" as equivalent to "good progress", if you do, then my comments won't be meaningful to you. Which is okay as I'm discussing a different thing.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 5:06 pmOK. So the Nazis were moving toward a goal. Eichman made sure the trains ran on time. Is whether the Nazis were right or not also "beside the point"?LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 4:56 pmI look at it differently as I define progress as movement not solely positive movement.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:50 pm
If someone asked me that question, I would have to say I do not know. I can't think of any clear-cut cases of "progress" that did not involve some gaining at the expense of others. Perhaps there are such cases and I just haven't heard of them.
Thus to me, due to memory of what works and doesn't work, humans make "progress" towards their goals by refining processes that move towards their goals. Whether they choose goals that an observer subjectively labels as good or bad is besides the point.
Fair enough.LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 5:17 pmIt depends on the subject matter of the discussion. If it is describing "good" progress the genocide part is germane, if it is a discussion on train schedules (alone) it is not. As I stipulated originally I don't define "progress" as equivalent to "good progress", if you do, then my comments won't be meaningful to you. Which is okay as I'm discussing a different thing.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 5:06 pmOK. So the Nazis were moving toward a goal. Eichman made sure the trains ran on time. Is whether the Nazis were right or not also "beside the point"?LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 4:56 pm
I look at it differently as I define progress as movement not solely positive movement.
Thus to me, due to memory of what works and doesn't work, humans make "progress" towards their goals by refining processes that move towards their goals. Whether they choose goals that an observer subjectively labels as good or bad is besides the point.
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Progress is a change toward the better.
Sure it happens. Look at life.