Philosophy Now Forum

Having been on a number of archaeological digs when I was at school, and a few since, I can attest that the best finds are always found at the edge of things. Walls of buildings, property or field boundaries, even borders of ancient kingdoms, as indicated by ridgeways, for example. Some of the reasons for this may be purely practical, of course. In the case of rooms, rubbish accumulates at the edges when floors are swept. With fields, the edges might be more difficult to plough over each year, and small, awkward areas might be missed. Borders, it goes without saying, are very popular venues for warfare, so we may more easily find evidence of ancient battles at or near them.

But I think something more is going on here. Rudston, Yorkshire, is just a tiny village with a massive megalith standing stone in its churchyard, which gives the village its name. There has been continuity of worship on this spot for at least four thousand years, maybe more. But the churchyard also contains a Roman sarcophagus, in an extremely bad state of repair, is has to be said, and located in a really inconvenient spot, right at the boundary of the churchyard, as indicated by a low medieval wall. Why put it here? This is obviously not the only example, and in fact, it's a common practice.

What is it about boundaries, the liminal areas, that seem to draw us? Humans are territorial creatures, even more so than cats, are we seem to care a great deal about boundaries, borders and limits. There's a lot of folklore associated with thresholds, and crossing over from one place to another, both literally and metaphorically. People might be said to be edgy, or on the edge. During the Neolithic period sacred enclosures are bounded by what archaeologists, rather confusingly, call henges, that is, circular embankments, that may or may not have stone circles in them. Ancient Roman religion also had its sacred enclosures, though these were usually rectangular, rather than circular.

In so many ways we seem to care more about boundaries than the actual things they enclose.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:43 am Having been on a number of archaeological digs when I was at school, and a few since, I can attest that the best finds are always found at the edge of things. Walls of buildings, property or field boundaries, even borders of ancient kingdoms, as indicated by ridgeways, for example. Some of the reasons for this may be purely practical, of course. In the case of rooms, rubbish accumulates at the edges when floors are swept. With fields, the edges might be more difficult to plough over each year, and small, awkward areas might be missed. Borders, it goes without saying, are very popular venues for warfare, so we may more easily find evidence of ancient battles at or near them.

But I think something more is going on here. Rudston, Yorkshire, is just a tiny village with a massive megalith standing stone in its churchyard, which gives the village its name. There has been continuity of worship on this spot for at least four thousand years, maybe more. But the churchyard also contains a Roman sarcophagus, in an extremely bad state of repair, is has to be said, and located in a really inconvenient spot, right at the boundary of the churchyard, as indicated by a low medieval wall. Why put it here? This is obviously not the only example, and in fact, it's a common practice.

What is it about boundaries, the liminal areas, that seem to draw us? Humans are territorial creatures, even more so than cats, are we seem to care a great deal about boundaries, borders and limits...

Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

And, if ANY one of 'you' cares a great deal about boundaries, borders, and/or limits, then this is just.
BECAUSE of past DISTORTED teachings and experiences, and the 'current' DISTORTED thinking.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:43 am There's a lot of folklore associated with thresholds, and crossing over from one place to another, both literally and metaphorically. People might be said to be edgy, or on the edge. During the Neolithic period sacred enclosures are bounded by what archaeologists, rather confusingly, call henges, that is, circular embankments, that may or may not have stone circles in them. Ancient Roman religion also had its sacred enclosures, though these were usually rectangular, rather than circular.

In so many ways we seem to care more about boundaries than the actual things they enclose.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:27 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:43 am Having been on a number of archaeological digs when I was at school, and a few since, I can attest that the best finds are always found at the edge of things. Walls of buildings, property or field boundaries, even borders of ancient kingdoms, as indicated by ridgeways, for example. Some of the reasons for this may be purely practical, of course. In the case of rooms, rubbish accumulates at the edges when floors are swept. With fields, the edges might be more difficult to plough over each year, and small, awkward areas might be missed. Borders, it goes without saying, are very popular venues for warfare, so we may more easily find evidence of ancient battles at or near them.

But I think something more is going on here. Rudston, Yorkshire, is just a tiny village with a massive megalith standing stone in its churchyard, which gives the village its name. There has been continuity of worship on this spot for at least four thousand years, maybe more. But the churchyard also contains a Roman sarcophagus, in an extremely bad state of repair, is has to be said, and located in a really inconvenient spot, right at the boundary of the churchyard, as indicated by a low medieval wall. Why put it here? This is obviously not the only example, and in fact, it's a common practice.

What is it about boundaries, the liminal areas, that seem to draw us? Humans are territorial creatures, even more so than cats, are we seem to care a great deal about boundaries, borders and limits...

Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

And, if ANY one of 'you' cares a great deal about boundaries, borders, and/or limits, then this is just.
BECAUSE of past DISTORTED teachings and experiences, and the 'current' DISTORTED thinking.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:43 am There's a lot of folklore associated with thresholds, and crossing over from one place to another, both literally and metaphorically. People might be said to be edgy, or on the edge. During the Neolithic period sacred enclosures are bounded by what archaeologists, rather confusingly, call henges, that is, circular embankments, that may or may not have stone circles in them. Ancient Roman religion also had its sacred enclosures, though these were usually rectangular, rather than circular.

In so many ways we seem to care more about boundaries than the actual things they enclose.

I think it's something innate in us, a natural human instinct, given to us by evolution. All humans do it, in all cultures, at all times in history.

Rabbits will often stay near boundaries between hedge or forest and field. They know that hopping into the bushes/forest presents real problems for the predator. Bright light to darker, simple vision field with separate objects to cluttered complex vision fields with darker shadows and lighter shadows, and everything in there will not be already known. So, it's a good spot. Step in, change direction, and you've thrown off already 50% of pursuers.

Then one of my favorite moments is making the transition, while walking, from not being under large tree cover to being in large tree cover. Stepping into the forest. I do love being under trees and that moment is the most dramatic experience of the difference. So if you are going to have a ritual the transition from one room to another, space to another, from outside to inside, is a very powerful transition to use. For similar reasons to why it's an effective defense for the rabbit, though with a whole other set of goals.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:40 am Rabbits will often stay near boundaries between hedge or forest and field. They know that hopping into the bushes/forest presents real problems for the predator. Bright light to darker, simple vision field with separate objects to cluttered complex vision fields with darker shadows and lighter shadows, and everything in there will not be already known. So, it's a good spot. Step in, change direction, and you've thrown off already 50% of pursuers.

Then one of my favorite moments is making the transition, while walking, from not being under large tree cover to being in large tree cover. Stepping into the forest. I do love being under trees and that moment is the most dramatic experience of the difference. So if you are going to have a ritual the transition from one room to another, space to another, from outside to inside, is a very powerful transition to use. For similar reasons to why it's an effective defense for the rabbit, though with a whole other set of goals.

Yes, that certainly makes a lot of sense. And I also agree about walking into a forest. The boundary is very clear, and everything changes. The nature of the space around you, the air, the sounds, smells, and the ground that you're walking on.

I cannot recall the terms referring to this concept, but every individual person, or even group of people, have a bias as to the "direction of their mind".

In other words, your brain has a compulsion to "look for" something instead of other things. It's a very powerful influence. It "moves" people toward a "favorable" direction.

It is a compulsion which predicates mysticism and chaos/randomness. And the 'bias' is your skewed rationality, Subjectivity.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 9:52 am I cannot recall the terms referring to this concept, but every individual person, or even group of people, have a bias as to the "direction of their mind".

In other words, your brain has a compulsion to "look for" something instead of other things. It's a very powerful influence. It "moves" people toward a "favorable" direction.

It is a compulsion which predicates mysticism and chaos/randomness. And the 'bias' is your skewed rationality, Subjectivity.

Sounds like experimenter effect, or experimenter bias, or, in other words, people tend to find what they're expecting, or hoping, to.

It's pretty common in archaeology, for example.

I mean, it's common in every field, science, religion, politics...mate attraction. Everything.

People who are not self-conscious, are 'blind' to it, no pun intended.

You cannot "look away" from your thoughts.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:02 am I mean, it's common in every field, science, religion, politics...mate attraction. Everything.

People who are not self-conscious, are 'blind' to it, no pun intended.

Yes, no doubt. It's human nature.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:36 am
Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:36 am
Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?

That was Age, you were quoting there.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:31 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:36 am
Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?

That was Age, you were quoting there.

Yes, I know Age said it, but I don't know how it got attributed to you. It was probably Age's fault rather than yours.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:37 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:31 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am
That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?

That was Age, you were quoting there.

Yes, I know Age said it, but I don't know how it got attributed to you. It was probably Age's fault rather than yours.

No doubt, hehe.

Temple spaces in Archaic Greece were deliberately set at the borders between 2 poleis. Each polis would use such ritual spaces to meet their neighbouring polis, at which localities sporting contests grew.
Aristotle called sport, "War without the killing".
Such liminal spaces were about keeping the peace and exchange of news and ideas. These would go on the great contests at Delphi, Olympus, Nemea, and Isthmia where we now mimic the Olympic games.