Philosophy Now Forum

we have had two particular POV's over the last couple of
hundreds of years...one POV has been based on science,
rationality, reason, skepticism, and logic... this viewpoint
has, as its philosophers, Descartes, Leibniz, Spinoza..
the so-called rationalist philosophers.. also known
as the philosophers of the Enlightenment.....the second
POV flowed from two different sources, the philosopher
Rousseau and Kant (whom I will get to in a moment)
and the German movement of Strum and Drang..
(storm and stress) which began with the publication
of Goethe's the "Sorrows of Young Werther" (I've simplified
this a bit, but we can mark the book "Sorrows" as being
a major impact on our next POV which is Romanticism...
which is defined as

Romanticism: ... ''was an artistic and intellectual movement
that originated in Europe towards the end of the 18th century....
.... Romanticism was characterized by its emphasis on emotion and
individualism as well as a glorification of the past and nature,
preferring the medieval to the classical. Romanticism was partly
a reaction to the Industrial Revolution and the prevailing ideology
of the Age of Enlightenment, especially in the scientific
rationalization of Nature"

If we were to break down the two beliefs systems, that
The Age of Enlightenment is a liberal belief system
and Romanticism is a conservative belief system...
which is still playing out in a town near you.....
and where the MAGA/GOP crowd has adapted to
the Romantic movement quite well... other ideologies
that is Romantic in nature, Naziism, nationalism, pro-life,
of course, conservatism,

and the Enlightenment values of rationalism and science
and skepticism has been adapted by the left, in which we
use facts and science to make our decisions...

the left values community and unity, whereas the right values
individuals and emotions...and in the belief in god... why
we can tell that is a conservative belief...for the left,, unlike
the right has no desire to turn America into Iran west....
where the law and religion are one and the same...

so, the question facing us is simple, can we reconcile
these two opposing POV's? can we blend these two POV's
into one? can we create a synthesis of these two POV's?

I believe it is not only possible, but it is necessary...
for us to continue on as a nation into the future...

that notions of the heart, emotionalism is necessary for
us.. for love is not an Enlightenment value, but it is
a Romanticism value.. a human value.. for
love, in many ways, creates meaning and purpose in
our lives...but love is not rational, logical, or scientific...
but we need love as much as we need oxygen or food
or esteem... love is both a physical and psychological
need...

in many ways, this battle between the enlightenment
and romanticism is a conflict over needs... what needs
are more important? should we study nature
in natural and spiritual ways or should we study
nature as a tool? cold, heartless, with no sense
of its value... or so goes the theory...
but the reality is much different.... it isn't the left pushing
to turn Yosemite into a giant parking lot or a amusement park?
no, it is the left trying to save Yosemite from the right, in which
the defining feature is the acquisition of the trinkets of existence..
the right believes, as a matter of faith, that those trinkets
of existence is what powers existence.. it is those trinkets
that give us meaning and purpose in life...

I cannot disagree more... that the trinkets of existence have
in fact, have become matters of faith.. and they cannot be questioned
or denied... we cannot be skeptical about god or money or power
or fame.... and we cannot, ever, deny the religion of America,
capitalism.... to do so is to become an heretic, a liberal,
a communist, a traitor... faith in capitalism must be total
and complete...

America truly believes in the faith of the trinkets of existence...
of money, of power, of fame, of titles and of material possessions....
that is the true faith system in America today...

and what of the values that give our lives meaning or purpose?
they are denied... the values of love, honor, charity, peace,
justice, equality, curiosity, seeking knowledge (for anything other
than pursing money, knowledge for the sake of knowledge)
and there a literally hundreds of values worth seeking,
but they conflict with the primary values of Americans,
that of seeking money, titles, fame, power and material possessions...

faith has shifted values from a belief in god to a belief in the
trinkets...superficial values for a superficial nation..
and will anyone even explore my contention? nah,
that would require one to relinquish their faith in
those superficial values of America...

the question becomes how do we move from our
values of trinkets of existence to the real values of
being alive, in seeking out the road of, the path
to becoming human... life is not a set journey, but
a path to become/ to transform into becoming, human...
not just an animal or an animal/human, but becoming
fully human....
and the journey to becoming must find a way to
work with our two ism's, Enlightenment values
and Romanticism values.. both rational and reason
with emotionalism and blind faith in the failed trinkets of
America....

am I understood? doubt it... for I write for ears not
yet born....

Kropotkin

one of the problems, (among several problems)
is the fact that both POV's miss the point...
that the battle to become human isn't
about fighting aliens or slaying dragons...

the fight to become human, to go from animal to animal/human
to becoming fully human is an inner fight.. overcoming our
childhood indoctrinations and a lifetime of "education" in
in which our value as a human being is defined by being
a worker, being a consumer, being a producer... in other words,
in economic terms.. we are what we build, we are what we
consume, we are what we produce.. as economic beings only....

but our real fight, is within finding out who we are
and then how to transform that into something better....
the battle is within us, not outside of us....

the triggers in being human lay within us, not in outside
factors like our identity or our economic worth or
in money, titles, fame, power or material possessions....

think about it... we are given our names, we are given our identities,
we are given our values and principles, we are given our education,
we are told we can only be consumers, producers and workers..
that is the only possibilities available to us...

but the battle is to overcome those indoctrinations...
to become who we are.. but to achieve that, we
must become, as Socrates noted, we must "know thyself"
and the "unexamined life isn't worth living" two
precepts that are forbidden today...

I am currently rereading Kasantzakis book, "Saint Francis"
a book about Francis of Assisi..a saint. but why is he a saint?
because he found god, no, because he went searching for god...
sainthood is found in the search, not in the finding...
personally, I feel a connection to Francis, not because I am
searching for god, although I did that for decades, no,
because I am now searching for something even more elusive,
wisdom.... the battle to become human is the battle to overcome
all sorts of crap that pretends to be human....our indoctrinations,
our education, our myths, our attempts to slay the dragons of life....

the toughest battle of all is the fight to become human...
to rise above our animal or our animal/human side of us...
and that battle is done by becoming aware of who we are
and what we must do to finish the journey of becoming...
a journey that begins and finishes within us, the battle is
inside of us... not out there, but in here.. inside our soul...

as Francis is seeking the divine, I am merely seeking the human
side of us... to become divine, that is another journey for another
day.....not today.....

another POV that tells us that we are not yet human..
but we are taking a journey to become human...
and that journey is not within either the Enlightenment
nor is it within the Romanticism that infects our lives today....
but our journey lies outside of, apart from just seeking reason,
rationality or logic and outside of or apart from seeking
nature or spirituality, the past, emotionalism....

we don't need to reconcile the two POV's if we begin with
the idea that we must seek out becoming human before
we seek out emotionalism or rationality....

Kropotkin

Such an oversimplification:
The left has its Romantic facets: I mean the whole Marxist withering away of the state and the future comrade paradise.
Of the Romantic goals tucked into the acceptance of diversity, the harmonious melting pot, rainbows of color and sexuality.
The romantic view of nature is held by Green parties, much of the left's views of nature and saving other species, and quasi spiritual ways nature is talked about.
And what's this bs about the left being community: anarchists are as individualistic, in fact more so then their right wing counterpart: libertarians.
And so many conservatives long for the good old 50s. Well, the fifties were incredibly communal and not individualistic. Church going familes that voted the same ticket. Same clothes, participation in rotaries and proper sports. The whole good hardworking citizen, member of the PTA and business bureaus. Have you really not noticed that the right wing has trouble with eccentricity? Not talking about diversity in race or color even, but just people not acting like you are 'supposed to.' Strong social norms where one fit in with the community.
And then this ridiculous that the conservatives don't like science and reason. Yes, if you look at religious right people. But no if you look at the vastly more powerful neo-cons. They love tech and reason and don't give a shit about tradition, culture, emotions. Their gonna science and tech you whereever they please.

And there's a lot more crap in these binary categories.
Always painting your enemies in simple not white, black terms.
Little dualistic schemas

This used to be the calling card of the right. You're like the right wing I knew when I was groving up. With us or against us. Painting liberals as bad, simply. Now the left has really gotten into this game also.

But congratulations, you're like the old right wing. Instead of people not being patriotic or moral if you're on the other side, with you it's painting them as fearful selfish dominators.

The people with real power appreciate people like you on the Left and the Right. They can happily do what they want while you fight eachother as the boogie man.

as I mentioned before, I am rereading
''Saint Francis" by Kazantzakis....
Now the goal of Kazantzakis has been to seek god..
he was, as they said about Spinoza, a "god-intoxicated man"...
I have been fascinated by K. since I started reading him
more than 30 years ago... one of his themes has been that
we must go further... it is not enough to do the common, average
thing but to go beyond that... to do the impossible... regardless
if you fail or not...

one of the themes of religion, of seeking god, not just from Kazan,
but of religions in general, has been to reform the soul,
to transform the soul... to become one with god...
I have rejected god, but to reform the soul, I accept
that 100%... now one such POV's has been this body
vs soul problems that has plagued religion over the
centuries... do we do homage to the soul or do
we pray to the body? we must reconcile those
separate POV's.... we can hold true to the body
and still be mindful of the soul...
in fact, we cannot do anything but that....

the battle as I have mentioned before, is not outside of us,
doing battle with dragons or slaying the evil creatures of existence,
no, the battle lies within us... of our transforming our soul
in which we go from animal, no soul, to animal/human, somewhat
a soul, to becoming fully human... give free reign to the soul,
our human soul.... the struggle is not a religious one,
although it could be framed in those terms, but no...
the struggle is to turn our souls into human souls..going
from animal to animal/human to finally becoming fully
human... those who go to church once a week for an
hour or two and think themselves to be saved.. they
are simply fooling themselves... it isn't about that hour
or two trying to stay awake, but it is about transforming
our soul... which is a 24/7/365 job....

those who go to church and assume they are saved are
taking the lazy path.. in some vain attempt to pretend
they are saved...but what are we saving, exactly?
and what does it take to be saved?

I would suggest that to be saved, is not a religious
job but a secular job... to save our souls isn't
reaching heaven or find serenity in god... that is just
a lazy way out...the path to transforming the soul
is to seek out the impossible...

I seek out the impossible... to wrestle with god, as
the Old Testament wrote about time and time again...
but in my wrestling.. I am saving the soul to
become human....not divine... we have seen others
reach this goal... In history, we have seen others
become divine by becoming human... Goethe,
and Gandhi and Shakespeare and MLK.. are all
who transformed their soul and became human...
to grow beyond just needed to fulfill the simple
needs of the animal.. of seeking out food, or water
or shelter or seeking out the psychological needs
of love or seeking out self-esteem or safety/security...
those are lower level human needs.. I am talking about
meeting the higher level human needs... and then going
beyond that.... that is what it means to transform the soul...
it isn't enough to just met our biological needs or
even our psychological needs... but to rise above that...
to seek out god is a lower level need... to seek out god
is to seek out love.. and that is a powerful need in human
beings, but we can even go higher than that by
taking the path of those like Goethe and transcend
our soul to be creative.... that is a higher level
than just seeking out food or water or even love
or security/safety..

to fill our soul to point where we must return that which
is created in filling our soul... to be creative is to
be so full in soul, that we must create to release
the buildup that occurs in our soul...
Goethe wrote, created from an overabundance of
of his soul.... as all creative types write or pain, or
compose from an abundance within their soul....

that is what it means to become human.... to no longer
be forced to seek out the lower animal needs or desires...
but to be so full of life, that we must create or explode...
and that is the goal... not to seek out god or to be
full of the lower level needs of being human, but
to become fully human... to create and then even
transform that into something greater... there is
always another level to reach, to become...
we are merely content to remain on the animal level,
of seeking out our basic biological needs, but
the reality is, that is just the bottom rung...
and we must climb higher and higher...
even attempting the impossible...
to become god.... and transforming the soul
is but one step to that end....

going from animal to animal/human to becoming fully human,
is not a physical journey, but a journey of the soul...
something to overcome within us, not outside of us...

Kropotkin

now one might say, my Kropotkin, you've gotten
awfully mystical in your old age...

but that is not true... talk about the soul, about
god, about being saved.. that isn't religious talk,
that is about becoming human...
to be religious is just another step on the ladder to
becoming human...and it isn't even the top rung
of becoming human...

in my life, I have wronged other people, I don't deny
that.. and what has been the result in my soul?
I have felt unhappy, discontented, miserable..
not in my body, but in my conscious, my soul
as it were...when we wrong someone, we feel
it in our soul... and if you don't, you are what is
called a psychopath.. that you can damage others,
either physically or emotionally or psychologically,
and not feel that in your soul, that is being a psychopath...
and we try to remove that "stain" on our soul, by
rationalizations, ''he deserved that'', or by some other
mental gymnastics... but in the end, the place where
we feel it is not physical, but mentally, emotionally,
psychologically, in the soul...
but if we do the right thing by others, our soul
isn't going to be bothered... we aren't upset or
unhappy or disturbed within our soul....
soul sickness happens when the soul is burden by
our actions and we somehow seek out forgiveness
or absolutions for our acts... most turn to god, but
what are going to do if there is no god?
where do find salvation, absolution for our actions?

in the transformation of our soul... that ''stain''
on our soul is what creates a mental or psychological
strain...and finding forgiveness is by the act of
transformation of our soul into a higher level....
I have committed a wrong, and my soul suffered,
as it should, I can however turn the page on that
wrong by acknowledging that it was wrong and
more importantly, learn from it, so as to not
harm another in that way....

when the body is sick, there are signs... we have
a temperature, we have aches and pains, we are
slow to move... we feel sluggish....
and what of the soul?
how can we know we are "soul sick?"
by the symptoms that plague our soul...
just as a healthy body is less likely to get sick,
a healthy soul is less likely to become ''soul sick"
a soul that treats others as an end, not as a means...
a soul that treats others with respect and dignity
and an understanding that we are all the same...
that soul will not get sick...''soul sick''

'our conscience makes cowards of us all''

is true if we are ''soul sick" and within being ''soul sick''
lies our pain and suffering and scars...

want to avoid being ''soul sick?"

do the right thing...

Kropotkin

let us explore being "soul sick"
when a CEO sacks millions of people to ''improve"
the bottom line, they should be sick to their stomach...
but no, and why not? because they can justify it
by thinking, it was the market forces.. or
by thinking about that big bonus coming in
that will allow me to buy that 4th vacation home...
it is fairly easy to self-rationalize virtually ever
choice we have ever made.... it isn't hard...
but that makes you a psychopath....
which is just another word for being ''soul sick''

if you can cheer on someone's failure,
if your soul is calm and serene by causing others
to suffer, then you are ''soul sick''...
for the point of the soul is to be our conscience..
and if that conscience is still clear after harming someone,
then you are ''soul sick''

the harming of others isn't what will dam us in front of god,
but will cause us to have a soul that is in discomfort, or unhappiness...
or you are just not comfortable in your soul...
how do we solve this ''soul sickness" by confessions..
all the well known religious acts we do to bring us
to heaven are just as good at relieving our ''soul sickness''
without any recourse to some mystical being like god....

we can find redemption and salvation by healing our own
souls... we have no need of a god or devil or heaven or hell...
we just need to cleanse our soul by healing it... and to heal
the soul requires us to acknowledge the damage we
have inflicted on others.. to be truthful within ourselves...
perhaps the hardest task ever given to us as human beings...
to thine own self be truthful....

the struggle to be human is the path to becoming truthful within
ourselves... to know thyself, to acknowledge that
''the unexamined life isn't worth living" the path
to salvation, to redemption is secular, not theological..

Kropotkin