Philosophy Now Forum

people will complain as to the value of being "WOKE"
or complain about liberal states or homelessness or
the lack of belief in god.. and then they STOP....
as if the important thing is to complain about it,
not to understand it or transform it or change it,
nope, many here hate ''WOKISM", great, offer me
something different... nah, not their problem...

they are only about complaining about something,
creating actual results that work, ahhh, maybe tomorrow...
but only after we attack Kropotkin for some petty bullshit
or something...

but to create some new insights into what ail us, the city
or the state/society, nahhh, Kropotkin is wrong..
and that all I gotta say about it.. to create some
meaning or hope into the situation they are complaining
about? Nahh, they would rather complain, than
offer us solutions to the problems they see... not
my problem, they might say, ''WOKISM" is wrong
and the greatest threat to America there is,
which is fine, if, if you offer us something better....
but that something better has to be better,
it just can't be a replay of the status quo...
believe in god or ''WOKISM" is wrong...
so, give me something new and original to
have hope in...give me actionable possibilities
that we can begin to work out what it means to
be human...

you say I am wrong, great, give me/us something better....

and not as Kropotkin is wrong thread, but as a positive,
transformative value or values that can be used to
make us better thread...

create a new thread with this new vision of what it
means to be human.....

Kropotkin

while I wait with the crickets, I offer up this:

a Christian in America today, will happily believe
they are going to heaven, regardless of their actual
actions and beliefs, and laugh about those who won't
go to heaven and sit at the right hand of god.....

while a true Christian will refuse admittance to heaven until
everyone, regardless of their actions or beliefs, gets to
go to heaven.... heaven for all or heaven for none....

that is being a true Christian....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:45 pm
they are only about complaining about something,
creating actual results that work, ahhh, maybe tomorrow...
but only after we attack Kropotkin for some petty bullshit
or something...

Is this you, complaining about the complainers?

not at all.. I am offering them a chance to lay
out their values and beliefs... oppose ''WOKISM"
great, offer us something different....lay out some
sort of values that can begin the process of
allowing us to become human...

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:39 pm not at all.. I am offering them a chance to lay
out their values and beliefs... oppose ''WOKISM"
great, offer us something different....lay out some
sort of values that can begin the process of
allowing us to become human...

Kropotkin

I guess that the complainers would propose that conservative values and beliefs are better than awakeness.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:54 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:39 pm not at all.. I am offering them a chance to lay
out their values and beliefs... oppose ''WOKISM"
great, offer us something different....lay out some
sort of values that can begin the process of
allowing us to become human...

Kropotkin

I guess that the complainers would propose that conservative values and beliefs are better than awakeness.

K: so make that argument.....
bring us something new to our
understanding of what it means to be human...
give us a new meaning of existence....


Kropotkin

while I listen to the crickets...
I offer up this:

a homeless man was standing in front of my store...
I gave him 5$.... and because of my "generosity" I
felt sure that I was going to heaven...and what happens
when the $5 is gone? am I still going to heaven?

Kropotkin

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:54 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:39 pm not at all.. I am offering them a chance to lay
out their values and beliefs... oppose ''WOKISM"
great, offer us something different....lay out some
sort of values that can begin the process of
allowing us to become human...

Kropotkin

I guess that the complainers would propose that conservative values and beliefs are better than awakeness.

Justice, fairness and law which is independent of race, class, gender, sex.

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:40 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:54 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:39 pm not at all.. I am offering them a chance to lay
out their values and beliefs... oppose ''WOKISM"
great, offer us something different....lay out some
sort of values that can begin the process of
allowing us to become human...

Kropotkin

I guess that the complainers would propose that conservative values and beliefs are better than awakeness.

Justice, fairness and law which is independent of race, class, gender, sex.

K: why that is the most ''WOKE" THING I have ever heard...
you ought to be ashamed of yourself for being that ''WOKE"

Kropotkin

K: why that is the most ''WOKE" THING I have ever heard...
you ought to be ashamed of yourself for being that ''WOKE"

Woke is about making race, class, gender, sex an integral part of every decision and action.

It's institutionalizing the things that we should be getting rid of.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:52 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:40 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:54 pm

I guess that the complainers would propose that conservative values and beliefs are better than awakeness.

Justice, fairness and law which is independent of race, class, gender, sex.

K: why that is the most ''WOKE" THING I have ever heard...
you ought to be ashamed of yourself for being that ''WOKE"

Kropotkin

And there you have it: Woke is not mere awareness, woke is having certain political positions. Woke is not reading Kant and realizing something about reality or the categorical imperative, it is having a certain set of political beliefs. That in itself is not a problem, of course, it just doesn't fit with PK's asserts about what Woke means.

Some kid in high school finds out that Northern Mexican towns have problems created by both drug cartels and certain types of corporations will not get told by a teacher 'Now you are woke.' They learned something, they became aware of something they were not aware of before.

Woke is a set of political positions and quite specific moral injunctions and a divvying up humans into categories, a hierarchy of oppression and what should be done about this.

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 6:59 pm

K: why that is the most ''WOKE" THING I have ever heard...
you ought to be ashamed of yourself for being that ''WOKE"

Woke is about making race, class, gender, sex an integral part of every decision and action.

It's institutionalizing the things that we should be getting rid of.

Exactly. 'Woke' is as racist and condescending as you can get. Woke is obsessed with race. It talks about nothing else.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 7:00 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:52 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:40 pm Justice, fairness and law which is independent of race, class, gender, sex.

K: why that is the most ''WOKE" THING I have ever heard...
you ought to be ashamed of yourself for being that ''WOKE"

Kropotkin

And there you have it: Woke is not mere awareness, woke is having certain political positions. Woke is not reading Kant and realizing something about reality or the categorical imperative, it is having a certain set of political beliefs. That in itself is not a problem, of course, it just doesn't fit with PK's asserts about what Woke means.

Some kid in high school finds out that Northern Mexican towns have problems created by both drug cartels and certain types of corporations will not get told by a teacher 'Now you are woke.' They learned something, they became aware of something they were not aware of before.

Woke is a set of political positions and quite specific moral injunctions and a divvying up humans into categories, a hierarchy of oppression and what should be done about this.

K: my statement was meant to point out that as ''WOKE" has no
political or actionable point.... it isn't about how taxes are divvied
up or specific housing plans.. I can literally, as I did, cry ''WOKE"
at anything... I did the housework today, and someone will
claim that is ''WOKE" it isn't about my point of view...
but about the opponents of ''WOKISM" point of view...

but ''WOKISM" as it is defined, is about a state of mind...
an ability to become aware.... I pointed out Kant
who said that the writings of Hume, woke him
up from his ''dogmatic slumbers" that is ''WOKE"..
and literally all that ''WOKE'' is.. it is a state of mind,
a viewpoint.. an understanding about the world...
you read the bible and suddenly it makes the notion of
god front and center in your world views... that is ''WOKE"

Being ''WOKE" creates no agenda nor does it have an agenda...
it is about seeing new possibilities of being human...

in history, the blacks were considered to be slaves..
and had no other value... to be ''WOKE" is to
see blacks having value as human beings, not as slaves...
that change in viewpoint is the "'WOKE".. and every
successive action based on that new awareness, that
new understanding is due to becoming ''WOKE" to
the possibilities of existence...

now some say that ''WOKISM" has ''CAUSED" San Fransisco
to have its problems...housing/homeless, drugs, violence...
what is actually the ''WOKE" aspect is not the housing/homeless/
violence problems, but in becoming aware of the housing/homeless
issues... the housing/homeless problem for example is a direct
effect of the high housing cost in SF... in study after study,
the cities with the highest homelessness are the cities
with the highest housing cost.. direct cause and effect...
and how, just exactly how does the claim of being ''WOKE"
cause higher housing costs? or the problem of drugs?

this ''war on drugs" has been going on for over 40 years, since
ST. Ronnie in the eighties.. and yet here it is....
still after 40 years...drugs use is epidemic in America...
to be ''WOKE" in this situation is to recognize the failure
of the longest war in American history and by becoming aware of,
becoming 'WOKE" to the actual situation...Now one will claim
as desantis claimed that SF is drug infested but the fact is
every single major city in America is drug infested... we just
have to have eyes to see.. and the rising crime rate in America....
that is a direct connection to the rising drug use in America....
the drugs us is the connection to the crime rate..
and as those are bigger than the problems of one city,
it will take a national solution to solve those problems,

that is what is being ''WOKE" is all about, becoming aware
of the fact that SF isn't the exception... SF is now the rule...
and your city in America is also on that path... SF just
got there first, in regard to homelessness and drug use...
it is an American problem, not just a city or state problem...


Kropotkin

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 1:39 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 6:59 pm

K: why that is the most ''WOKE" THING I have ever heard...
you ought to be ashamed of yourself for being that ''WOKE"

Woke is about making race, class, gender, sex an integral part of every decision and action.

It's institutionalizing the things that we should be getting rid of.

Exactly. 'Woke' is as racist and condescending as you can get. Woke is obsessed with race. It talks about nothing else.

They’re “obsessed” with race because the bigots are close minded.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:49 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 1:39 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 6:59 pm Woke is about making race, class, gender, sex an integral part of every decision and action.

It's institutionalizing the things that we should be getting rid of.

Exactly. 'Woke' is as racist and condescending as you can get. Woke is obsessed with race. It talks about nothing else.

They’re “obsessed” with race because the bigots are close minded.

Gost. What an intelligent response. Just what one would expect from a wokie.