Philosophy Now Forum

as I have never heard of such a thing until about
5 minutes ago, I decided to do some research....

the key word of course is "genocide"

Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of
people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the
aim of destroying that nation or group....

and so what we have in America today, is an attempt
by certain states, led by the MAGA/GOP crowd...
to attack the rights of trans/gay people....
this cultural war effort is an attempt to criminalize
actions taken by trans/gays... not much
different than actions taken by the Nazi's to
criminalize the Jewish in the 1930's...
(the Nazi's also criminalized gays, communist, and gypsies)

So, there is a great similarity in actions taken by the Nazi's
and the Modern American conservative moment....

So, the steps to genocide are certainly there...
and it does seem to be the next logical step for
the extreme right wing.... the ones who hate anything
different from themselves....or said another way,
they want a completely homogeneous America...
no people looking different or loving different or
praying to different gods... basically everyone
is suppose to be white, Anglo-Saxon, protestant...
with no differences at all between people....

and so, in those terms, we can think about the extreme
right wing as engaging in genocide... to make everyone
a carbon copy of everyone else ... in forcing compliance
of everyone into certain values and beliefs, that certainly
does have a genocide thing going on...for that forcing
of people into certain conformists beliefs, or by the criminalization
of beliefs that are ''different"... that strikes me as the path
to genocide....

now people like vegan.. who is clearly prejudice, bigoted
and full of hatred of those who don't resemble her...
I believe she would happily enforce her beliefs on
everyone else if, if given the chance....
and that is the essence of the cultural wars in America...
to force others to conform to your values, your beliefs,
your ideology... and that forcing, I think the attempt
to force others to hold to a certain set of beliefs,
can be considered, genocide...as in a cultural genocide...
to force others into a certain set of beliefs, that
can be a form of culturally genocide...

now of course, she will accuse me of doing the same thing,
as being a part of her current bigotry, ''WOKE"

But fighting for the rights of people to hold onto their
beliefs and values is not, NOT attempting to
take away her right to her values and beliefs,
as that would be genocide of her values and beliefs...

for I am not trying to take away her rights, values
or beliefs.. not at all... but I would like her
to reevaluate her values/beliefs....for I believe
that most people hold their current values and beliefs
as part of their childhood indoctrinations... her parents
were, on some sliding scale, bigots and prejudiced against
people... and in growing up, she never challenged or
became aware of her indoctrinations, education,
habits that came from her childhood.... as with most
people....

so I am actually calling for vegan to commit to
an honest reevaluation of values.. where she
examines her values/beliefs and see's if they are
actually, her beliefs/values or did she just inherited
those values/beliefs and lacked the courage for
a reevaluation of values?

Kropotkin

Perhaps you can tell us how trans rights can be implemented without stomping on women's rights.

For example, access to restrooms and change rooms, athletic competitions, or something else you care to bring up.

Then there is the issue of access to medical procedures and drugs. Should resources be taken away from health problems and instead used to change the bodies of trans. Possibly at the taxpayers expense.

Then there is the issue of children. Can a child decide which gender it is? Should surgery and drugs be used on a child?

A child can't even get a tattoo but body alteration is okay??

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 3:26 pm Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of
people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the
aim of destroying that nation or group....

and so what we have in America today, is an attempt
by certain states, led by the MAGA/GOP crowd...
to attack the rights of trans/gay people....
this cultural war effort is an attempt to criminalize
actions taken by trans/gays... not much
different than actions taken by the Nazi's to
criminalize the Jewish in the 1930's...
(the Nazi's also criminalized gays, communist, and gypsies)

1) attempts are not the same as actions. In the 30s Jewish people were quoted out of universities, had their businesses taken away, discriminated in all facets of daily life and towards the end of the 30 attacked physically with great regularity. They also had to identify themselves as Jews. 2) Gays currently in the West are more accepted than homosexuals have been in Western history. They have legal protections and ones accepted by most conservatives granted to other groups. Be specific about what laws Maga is attacking and how many people this is and are then in power. In the 30 3) Nazis were in power in a political system that is not the same as the one in the US, for example.

So, there is a great similarity in actions taken by the Nazi's
and the Modern American conservative moment....

You went from attempts to actions. Now it's the whole conservative movement. No mentions of any specifics. Do the specifics match the specifics in Nazi Germany?

How many people have lost work because they have said something that is considered anti-trans?

So, the steps to genocide are certainly there...
and it does seem to be the next logical step for
the extreme right wing

How does it seem that way

.... the ones who hate anything
different from themselves....

or said another way,

they want a completely homogeneous America...
no people looking different or loving different or
praying to different gods...

And there is some faction of the LGTBQ who want cis people to have less rights. And there are parts of BLM who think whites should give up their jobs. And there are parts.....

It's this vague talk that is the talk of demagoguery.

basically everyone
is suppose to be white, Anglo-Saxon, protestant...
with no differences at all between people....

Yeah, the GOP wants everyone to be white, straight and protestant.

and so, in those terms, we can think about the extreme
right wing as engaging in genocide...

No, we can't. That's spitting in the face of people who were the victims of those engaging in genocide.
This is slippery slope hysteria.

And let's look at your opening. You say you just heard this concept Transgenocide 5 minutes ago. Why is it only now you suddenly think someone is engaging in genocide?

to make everyone
a carbon copy of everyone else ... in forcing compliance
of everyone into certain values and beliefs, that certainly
does have a genocide thing going on...for that forcing
of people into certain conformists beliefs, or by the criminalization
of beliefs that are ''different"... that strikes me as the path
to genocide....

Well, great, let's go back to the part of the left that wants anyone critical of things like trans man->woman participation in women's sports, including people like Martina Navratolova, say, to be forced to recant and be economically punished. Is that the path to genocide?

now people like vegan.. who is clearly prejudice, bigoted
and full of hatred of those who don't resemble her...
I believe she would happily enforce her beliefs on
everyone else if, if given the chance....
and that is the essence of the cultural wars in America...
to force others to conform to your values, your beliefs,
your ideology... and that forcing, I think the attempt
to force others to hold to a certain set of beliefs,
can be considered, genocide...as in a cultural genocide...
to force others into a certain set of beliefs, that
can be a form of culturally genocide...

Great now vegans are engaging in genocide. Vegans being vastly more on the left.

now of course, she will accuse me of doing the same thing,
as being a part of her current bigotry, ''WOKE"

But fighting for the rights of people to hold onto their
beliefs and values is not, NOT attempting to
take away her right to her values and beliefs,
as that would be genocide of her values and beliefs...

But then you would condemn the intention to cancel anyone who does not hold those beliefs to be genocidal. So any professor not agreeing with all facets of BLM or pro-trans positions being blackballed or fired or demanded to be fired would be suffering the first signs of genocide, yes?

so I am actually calling for vegan to commit to
an honest reevaluation of values.. where she
examines her values/beliefs and see's if they are
actually, her beliefs/values or did she just inherited
those values/beliefs and lacked the courage for
a reevaluation of values?

Yeah, vegans are vegans cause their parents were vegans.

And people can't reevaluate their childhood indoctrinations and become fascists. Even Hitler's anti-semitism kicked in after WW1 ended and under the adult influence of a couple of anti-semites.

He doesn't mean vegans, he means vegetariantaxidermy.

A "genus" is a biological category.

Transers tell us that their "gender" ISN'T biological. They say it's social, and constructed. (Well, but then they turn around and insist that they "need" to be remade biologically...but coherence has never been part of their thinking.)

Therefore, they are, by their own account, not a "genus," and not the object of "genocide." And any protestations against their agenda are protests only against a "socially constructed" illusion, not against a particular biological group, nor against any objective reality.

To oppose the trans agenda is only to disagree philosophically with those committed to a socially constructed delusion. Nobody dies.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 5:29 pm Nobody dies.

Then again we all "die". Every one of us. Some of us will go sooner or later than others (perhaps depending on the kind of care we receive in society and/or the life we lead).

PK certainly could have framed it better. Would have been better to have titled the thread as something like "Stages leading to the extermination of the LGBTQ community" and to have included something like the following. Semantics aside, whether its call "extermination", "genocide" or what have you, the process is the same.

Gregory H Stanton, President of Genocide Watch developed the 10 stages of genocide which explains the different stages which lead to genocide. At each of the earlier stages there is an opportunity for members of the community or the International Community to halt the stages and stop genocide before it happens.
Click here to download a PDF copy of the ten stages of genocide poster.
The stages are:
1. Classification – The differences between people are not respected. There’s a division of ‘us’ and ‘them’ which can be carried out using stereotypes, or excluding people who are perceived to be different.
2. Symbolisation – This is a visual manifestation of hatred. Jews in Nazi Europe were forced to wear yellow stars to show that they were ‘different’.
3. Discrimination – The dominant group denies civil rights or even citizenship to identified groups. The 1935 Nuremberg Laws stripped Jews of their German citizenship, made it illegal for them to do many jobs or to marry German non-Jews.
4. Dehumanisation – Those perceived as ‘different’ are treated with no form of human rights or personal dignity. During the Genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda, Tutsis were referred to as ‘cockroaches’; the Nazis referred to Jews as ‘vermin’.
5. Organisation – Genocides are always planned. Regimes of hatred often train those who go on to carry out the destruction of a people.
6. Polarisation – Propaganda begins to be spread by hate groups. The Nazis used the newspaper Der Stürmer to spread and incite messages of hate about Jewish people.
7. Preparation – Perpetrators plan the genocide. They often use euphemisms such as the Nazis’ phrase ‘The Final Solution’ to cloak their intentions. They create fear of the victim group, building up armies and weapons.
8. Persecution – Victims are identified because of their ethnicity or religion and death lists are drawn up. People are sometimes segregated into ghettos, deported or starved and property is often expropriated. Genocidal massacres begin.
9. Extermination – The hate group murders their identified victims in a deliberate and systematic campaign of violence. Millions of lives have been destroyed or changed beyond recognition through genocide.
10. Denial – The perpetrators or later generations deny the existence of any crime.

From <https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the- ... -genocide/>

The stages in bold above are certainly in progress. That's seven of the ten stages. The process is well on its way. Enough hatred has been stirred up in some quarters for at least some of them to want to see it taken to the "final solution". Whether Christians want to admit it or not, Christianity is playing a large role, if not the driving force behind this.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 4:49 pm He doesn't mean vegans, he means vegetariantaxidermy.

Thank you, that makes much more sense. In regard to PK's worldview that is.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 3:26 pm now people like vegan.. who is clearly prejudice, bigoted
and full of hatred of those who don't resemble her...
I believe she would happily enforce her beliefs on
everyone else if, if given the chance....
and that is the essence of the cultural wars in America...
to force others to conform to your values, your beliefs,
your ideology... and that forcing, I think the attempt
to force others to hold to a certain set of beliefs,
can be considered, genocide...as in a cultural genocide...
to force others into a certain set of beliefs, that
can be a form of culturally genocide...

Interesting. I'd love to see a quote that in any way suggests genocide. I mean vegetariantaxidermy can certainly express a lot of rage. But I never even saw suggestions that trans people should not have jobs or not get housing. Or should register or wear some kind of patch identifying them as trans.

One thing that groups like the Nazis do is demonize people.

Has PK moved into genocide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some people made policy. Others got on the radio and demonized.

I mean, jesus. Things are us vs them enough. No let's start all accusing each other of genocide.

It comes from the WOKE humor thread :

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 12:44 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 12:33 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 12:28 pm

'Mitigated'? I'm pretty sure the opposite is the case.

Why do you think the opposite is the case? I've had disagreeable run-ins with the "woke". They're not invincible, though they are also not evil.

It's certainly not about 'helping' others. It's about as self-indulgent, selfish, self-serving, shallow and narcissistic as you could get. Everything is about forcing others to abandon their own sense of what is true or not and accept whatever they tell you to accept, and to think exactly as they tell you to think--OR ELSE. That's pretty much a definition of fascisim isn't it? 1984? Ministry of Truth? Newspeak? What happens when we can't use the word 'woman' any more because it no longer means anything? The human race is going down the toilet and we are nearly past the S bend.
Humans just couldn't be satisfied with equal rights. It wasn't enough for a certain element that had everything to gain by continuing to fight for 'rights' that had already been won years ago. This is why they have come up with a whole dictionary full of meaningless, bullshit buzzterms that they fling around ad nauseum. I mean, 'trans genocide'? What the fuck?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 6:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 5:29 pm Nobody dies.

Then again we all "die".

In the alleged "trans-genocide," I mean. Nobody is being kiiled by the fact that somebody doesn't agree with his or her gender swap. The suggestion it's some sort of "genocide" is simply a case of ideologues being absurdly melodramatic.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 9:23 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 6:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 5:29 pm Nobody dies.

Then again we all "die".

In the alleged "trans-genocide," I mean. Nobody is being kiiled by the fact that somebody doesn't agree with his or her gender swap. The suggestion it's some sort of "genocide" is simply a case of ideologues being absurdly melodramatic.

I agree that it's melodramatic, however, nature and society are still not always nice to those who deviate from social norms. Quality of medical care, economic opportunities, and feeling socially accepted are factors that can play in how long a person lives or how well they thrive in society. I agree that the "woke" movement tends to overstate such things. But the idea of "genocide" has become a very potent image to humanity, at least after the Holocaust in Europe, not that genocide hasn't happened to other groups even before that. But it seems to have taken the incident to have occured in the otherwise admired realm of Western Europe before anyone other than the victims took serious notice.

Peter Kropotkin thinks that if he's not allowed into women's changing rooms and toilets then he's being 'genocided'

But the idea of "genocide" has become a very potent image to humanity, at least after the Holocaust in Europe, not that genocide hasn't happened to other groups even before that.

That's why the word is used. It's an easy way to manipulate people. Nobody wants to be associated with participating in a genocide.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 9:36 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 9:23 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 6:07 pm
Then again we all "die".

In the alleged "trans-genocide," I mean. Nobody is being kiiled by the fact that somebody doesn't agree with his or her gender swap. The suggestion it's some sort of "genocide" is simply a case of ideologues being absurdly melodramatic.

I agree that it's melodramatic, however, nature and society are still not always nice to those who deviate from social norms.

Well, "deviating" can be tolerable or unworthy of toleration, depending on what it entails.

In any case, the Wokies are blowing smoke. There's no "trans genocide." And it's not at all a good thing if we "tolerate" mental illness instead of healing it.