Philosophy Now Forum

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 amBut what causes this, and does it vary from person to person?

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:16 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 amBut what causes this, and does it vary from person to person?

I have to imagine so. I mean, you get people who find visiting Auschwitz a really solemn, sacred experience, and being in that place is overbearingly haunting - and then other people who take selfies there while doing the Sieg Heil.

There could be places that have a physical aspect to them that most people are sensitive to, I suppose - maybe stonehenge, maybe an electric power plant - but I would guess that most feelings of sacredness about a place are very much down to individual psychology.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:34 am Stonehenge is an interesting example, because every time I've been there it's been crawling with people, which very much dampens the effect. Other stone circles are much more powerful.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:41 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:34 am Stonehenge is an interesting example, because every time I've been there it's been crawling with people, which very much dampens the effect. Other stone circles are much more powerful.

If it is something physical and not psychological, it should be measurable by a physical instrument of some sort, at least in principle. Have you read any studies on this?

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:46 am
I've experimented with dowsing a number of times, most interestingly at a stone circle in Oxfordshire where they were handing out dowsing rods to visitors, who were then told to walk in a certain direction until the rods twitched. Apparently they indicated an underground current formed by flowing water.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:56 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:46 am
I've experimented with dowsing a number of times, most interestingly at a stone circle in Oxfordshire where they were handing out dowsing rods to visitors, who were then told to walk in a certain direction until the rods twitched. Apparently they indicated an underground current formed by flowing water.

I don't think dowsing is the sort of physical instrument I'm looking for, based on the scientific consensus on that. Dowsing is more about human movements than an objective measure of detectible forces.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches? Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches?

Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:36 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches?

Many certainly do, and while I'm not a Christian I certainly feel it in some churches. I can also have some pretty bad feelings in some churches.

Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.

Most indigenous spiritualities had sacred places (and bad ones).

I suppose I mainly get that particular numinous feeling outdoors in nature. And it depends on the specific place. IOW not all waterfalls, but certain ones. Etc.

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:42 am It seems to be related to shape, too. Outdoor places that are partially enclosed, such as a natural amphitheatre, seem to be more likely to generate the response. Clearings in woods are also similar.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:54 am Could it be that these shapes are creating a certain combination of physical effects for you that trigger an emotional response? The shapes you describe may be conducive to reverberation or echoes, they may create particular air flow patterns, things like that, which you experience as numenal. I can definitely relate to the experience of being in a somewhat echoey, reverby environment having a certain "magical" feeling to it

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:04 am I particularly like stone circles, especially the smaller ones, because they create a feeling of being outside and inside an enclosure at the same time. That's presumably why they were created that way.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:55 am

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:42 am It seems to be related to shape, too. Outdoor places that are partially enclosed, such as a natural amphitheatre, seem to be more likely to generate the response. Clearings in woods are also similar.

I generally agree, though I'd vastly rather be under trees than in a clearing.