Philosophy Now Forum

In Freud, one reads about how the unconscious mind, reacts
to drives and events, especially from childhood, with sex
being the prime motivator of our actions and behavior....

and let us put some meat on this...

Freud thought the reason for our compulsions and neurosis
and anxiety comes from our inner conscious life.. we
have these clinical problems due to, as Freud put it,
our Oedipus complex or our eros and Thanatos complex...
our inner struggles have created much of our troubled
mental problems of the day....we engaged in internal
censorship which causes us to have neurosis and anxiety for
example... but what Freud doesn't do is to lay the blame
where it really belongs... the conflict between the society/state
and the individual....

Now some have said, that the reason that Gays are so troubled is
the fact they are gay...I would disagree... if we allowed them to
be who they are, to be gay.. that would reduce the amount of
mental and emotional baggage they might have... in other words,
by forcing people into set roles that conflict with who they
really are, the society with capitalism being a prime example,
force people into the roles that benefits capitalism, but creates
conflicts and disorder within a person or a group of people....

If, my only acceptable role within society is to a worker,
a consumer or a producer, then I am forced to engage
in those three possible roles... but that is not who I am...
I am something else... and forcing people into roles that
are not who they are, is what creates and moves the personal
conflicts that creates within us anxiety and neurosis in us....

I suspect, but can't prove, that the reason mental illness seems
to be increasing in America.. we, the society and state, are
forcing people to be in roles that don't fit them and in fact,
are diametrically opposite of...

One who is creative and artistic may become "troubled"
because they are forced into roles that don't allow
them to be creative or artistic...they are forced into
being a consumer or a worker or a producer, when in
fact they are not any of those things.... I would
suggest the rise of violence and guns and drug use
in America is directly related to this forcing by the state/society
of people into roles, to be a consumer, producer or worker, that
they have no desire or ability to do...
the rise of anxiety and neurosis comes from the society/state forcing
people into roles that they are not equipped to be...

to force gay or trans people into being straight or "no-trans" is
to force them into roles that don't work for them and causes
them into having actions and behaviors that damage or hurt the person
or the state/society....

to force capitalism on everyone regardless of who they are and
what they are capable of, is to increase anxiety and neurosis
and actions that they would normally not even think of....

in part, that is why Europe has less violence, drug problems
and other related issues... one isn't being forced into conformity
24/7/365...

the complaints of the right-wing conservative about how
the left, the liberal has destroyed America can
actually, be the impact of the conformity that
America forces on its people by forcing them into
roles that they are suited to... especially given the
emphasis on the culture wars of the right...

trying to force people into believing in a god, that they
do not believe in, will cause mental stress, anxiety
and in some cases, neurosis...as is to force gays and trans
people to become something they are not and to force
people into conforming to some widespread monolithic
belief like ''America is the greatest country on earth"
is to cause the problems we are seeing today, in
terms of mental health problems....

creating conformity where none exists causes mental problems
that we can see today, every single day on the news....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:03 am In Freud, one reads about how the unconscious mind, reacts
to drives and events, especially from childhood, with sex
being the prime motivator of our actions and behavior....

and let us put some meat on this...

Freud thought the reason for our compulsions and neurosis
and anxiety comes from our inner conscious life.. we
have these clinical problems due to, as Freud put it,
our Oedipus complex or our eros and Thanatos complex...
our inner struggles have created much of our troubled
mental problems of the day....we engaged in internal
censorship which causes us to have neurosis and anxiety for
example... but what Freud doesn't do is to lay the blame
where it really belongs... the conflict between the society/state
and the individual....

Well, in Civilization and it's discontents, he does consider the tension between individual desires and drives to be at odds, fundamentally with society. Society to try to keep people safe and organized is going to stifle sex and violence urges, for example, so there will always be suffering and tension between individuals and their drives with civilization.

I think he viewed this as the choice of a lesser evil. I am not sure if it is inevitable, but I haven't seen a good solution. Socialist societies (and those that have more elements of socialism than the US like the country I live in now) tend to be even more conformist'. There is greater equality economically, but at the same time state monitors behavior in more ways than in the US. There is still a huge tension between the individual, given that individualism as a value is supported less or challenged more.

Now some have said, that the reason that Gays are so troubled is
the fact they are gay...I would disagree... if we allowed them to
be who they are, to be gay.. that would reduce the amount of
mental and emotional baggage they might have... in other words,
by forcing people into set roles that conflict with who they
really are, the society with capitalism being a prime example,
force people into the roles that benefits capitalism, but creates
conflicts and disorder within a person or a group of people....

If, my only acceptable role within society is to a worker,
a consumer or a producer,

Is that the case? Are people only allowed those roles, in the US, for example.
I do understand that most people have to work, but that's not restricted to capitalism. Socialism often fetishizes work at least as much as capitalism and one is of course expected to produce via work for the good of society.

I'm not a fan of capitalism, ESPECIALLY, in its current form with banks being able to create money, corporate control of its own oversight, lobbying powers, oligarchial tendencies in general and more. But I would be interested in hearing what approaches alleviate the individual's tension with society.....

then I am forced to engage
in those three possible roles... but that is not who I am...
I am something else... and forcing people into roles that
are not who they are, is what creates and moves the personal
conflicts that creates within us anxiety and neurosis in us....

.....especially in this context. In addition to most people having to work, even the horrid US capitalism, does allow one to identify in a whole mass of alternate roles ALSO. I am certainly not arguing this is ideal, at all. But since you positively compare Europe with the US, I don't see where Europeans have more freedom to follow their individualistic desires. In fact in the Scandanavian countries, for example, individualism is culturally attacked via parenting and schooling. And certainly everyone is expected to work. You have to consume regardless. This is changing as Reagan and Thatcher effects, still slowly seeping out of the US and UK, coupled with large immigration, change the values of these countries.

I suspect, but can't prove, that the reason mental illness seems
to be increasing in America.. we, the society and state, are
forcing people to be in roles that don't fit them and in fact,
are diametrically opposite of...

I can't see the current US set up as more conformist than the 50s were. There roles as workers were even tighter. Emotional expression was much more limited for both sexes. Gays were closeted and certainly couldn't get married or hold down the kinds of jobs they can now and be openly gay. Sexual expression or even talking about sex was vastly more inhibited and suppressed than now for everyone.

So, seeing the rise in mental illness as caused by capitalist views of one's role as a worker and suppression of individualism seems misplaced.

One who is creative and artistic may become "troubled"
because they are forced into roles that don't allow
them to be creative or artistic...they are forced into
being a consumer or a worker or a producer, when in
fact they are not any of those things.... I would
suggest the rise of violence and guns and drug use
in America is directly related to this forcing by the state/society
of people into roles, to be a consumer, producer or worker, that
they have no desire or ability to do...
the rise of anxiety and neurosis comes from the society/state forcing
people into roles that they are not equipped to be...

Again, I am not sure how Europe fares better. You are expected to work in Europe. You can, as you can in the US, add on many other roles. Not saying that's enough, but I can't see how Europe fares better in terms of supporting individualism.

to force gay or trans people into being straight or "no-trans" is
to force them into roles that don't work for them and causes
them into having actions and behaviors that damage or hurt the person
or the state/society....

ARe you saying it is worse for gay and trans than it was in the 50s-80s say? And if not, then I can't see how the main idea about the state is supported.

to force capitalism on everyone regardless of who they are and
what they are capable of, is to increase anxiety and neurosis
and actions that they would normally not even think of....

To force any government on anyone is going to create tensions and neurosis, since civilization and the individual are at odds.

And, again, I am not saying we shouldn't look at these kinds of problems, but it seems there is an implicit argument that capitalism is the system that causes this tension, when all other systems also cause it

It's good to explore since, their may be better solutions. But that's where things get interesting. So, if you have a solution to the tension, let me know.

in part, that is why Europe has less violence, drug problems
and other related issues... one isn't being forced into conformity
24/7/365...

I really don't know what you're talking about. I live in Europe. It is much more conformist in many ways. There is greater support for the poor and sick. But if you can work, you are expected to work. I see a much stronger cultural pressure to conform and do one's duty - vaguely defined. Individual expression has long been seen as socially inappropriate in ways that run against the grain of the UK and especially the US.

This does not mean it is worse here. But when we talk about the tension between individual urges and society - iow the Freudian type sources of neurosis, I don't see US capitalism as creating more of a tension then the partially socialistic European versions of capitalism.

And then if we look at countries that were even less capitalistic, like the old USSR countries or China before it became the strange hybrid capitalism/socialism it is now, we seen even more tension between the individual and society.

Earlier I expressed some distaste for 'we' speak. Leftist nations are notorious we speakers. (of course the right and the middle also use this kind of speech, but it is a central mode of the left). That we speak is reflected, often, in how being an individual and individualism are seen as problematic in socialism. That we should think of the we first and always. So, I am finding it ironic that socialism is being seen as a solution to the individual's tension with society.

the complaints of the right-wing conservative about how
the left, the liberal has destroyed America can
actually, be the impact of the conformity that
America forces on its people by forcing them into
roles that they are suited to... especially given the
emphasis on the culture wars of the right...

The two noisiest side of the culture wars both demand conformism. And again, things are vastly more flexible for the individual than they were in earlier decades.

trying to force people into believing in a god, that they
do not believe in, will cause mental stress, anxiety
and in some cases, neurosis...as is to force gays and trans
people to become something they are not and to force
people into conforming to some widespread monolithic
belief like ''America is the greatest country on earth"
is to cause the problems we are seeing today, in
terms of mental health problems....

Force pretty much any belief and you create a tension.'

I have mentioned socialism since Europe is more socialistic and it's my impression you are more of a socialist, PK. Of course there can be and are solutions that do not fit nicely in that binary socialism vs. capitalism schema. It's be interesting if anyone thinks one of those offer a way out of the seemingly inevitable tension between indvidualism and the state or civilization.