The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Generally when we [humans] deliberate on what is reality, fact, truth, knowledge and Objectivity, we necessary ignore the "actual" real 13.7 billion years of conditions that are conditioned upon all humans.
But this is insufficient when we deliberate of the finer aspects and issue within philosophy.

PH and his gang of philosophical realists [mind-independent reality] just ignored the above mentioned 13.7 billions of conditions when they deliberate of 'what is reality' 'what is fact' 'what is truth' and so on.
Based on the above ignorance and omissions insist arrogantly they are representing true factual reality - ultracrepidarians, Dunning–Krugerians!
This ignorance is a hindrance to moral progress for humanity toward the future in facing greater and greater global and galactical fatalistic threats to humanity.

Note: Reality [as qualified] is deterministic but not of absolute determination.

What is reality, fact, truth, knowledge and the objectivity of these elements at the present moment are conditioned upon the 13.7 billion years of conditions determined since the Big-Bang, i.e.
13.7 billions years of physical forces
3.5 billions years of the evolution of organic life
200-250K years of human evolution.

Since,
Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality - ALL-there-is
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39751
and that reality is deterministic,
whatever things are considered real, truths, knowledge of reality [all conditions] cannot be absolute independent of the human-mind [or human conditions] as claimed by Philosophical Realism. There are no things-in-themselves, "man [or thing] is an island by itself".

Therefore Philosophical Realism [mind-independence] (human independent] cannot be realistic nor tenable.

Philosophical Realism which is useful is fundamentally clinging to a mind-independent reality that is illusory.

My point;
when we [humans] deliberate on the finer aspects of reality we must not ignore the 13.7 billions of conditions that are conditioned upon the present humans.

Will you take the above into consideration in your deliberations of the finer aspects of reality?

After the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, what emerged was a primordial soup of particles, e.g. like this;



The above particles coalesce into denser clusters of particles resulting in various patterns ending with atoms and molecules.

At around 3.5 billion years, the clusters particles (atoms and molecules) further coalesce with the emergence of the first organic life.
Because of relative determinism, whatever is cognized [& however] by these primitive entities cannot be absolutely independent of the whole of reality of primordial particles which it is part and parcel of, i.e. entangled.

It is the same with organisms up to 200-250K years ago that emerged till the first proto humans; they merely have experiences of reality as in entanglement with the clusters of particles; these experiences are based on the realization of reality resulting from the entanglement with the primordial clusters of particles that is specific to their Framework and System of Reality [FSR]. note FSR not FSK.

What is experienced by these proto-entities is pure experiences of emergence and realization in entanglement with their beingness without boundaries from the primordial soup of particles. This is the basic reality, i.e. all things are entangled deterministically within the primordial soup.

This is what I meant by the 1st phase of emergence and realization of reality before it is perceived, known and described.
PH & gang- note this!
Before any fact is perceived, known and described, there is prior process of its emergence and realization as conditioned within a 13.7 billions years of human conditions.

The Emergence of External_ness and Mind-Independence
However along the lines of evolution, there is an adaptation of externality, a sense of external-ness programmed via evolution to facilitate the survival of the organism and therefore the species. This focus on the external is critical for hunting of food external to oneself and be wary of external threats and opportunities.
Because this adaptation is so critical and successful since billions of years ago, this sense of externalness is habitualized and dominant over any sense of internalness.

Then in the last 7 million years, there is the emergence of the human intellect and intelligence;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... lligenceal
this is when the ism of philosophical realism [mind-independent] emerged as the dominant impulse within all humanity began to emerge.

It was only around 50-100K years ago that language evolved within humans.
Together with the later advances of both the intellect and language philosophical realism became more dominant.

It was only in the last 5000 to 2500 years ago that some wiser humans realized the limitations of the evolved dominant philosophical realism of mind-independence.
They were wise enough to revert the more realistic version of reality that all humans cannot be absolutely independent of the human conditions, i.e. the supposedly 13.7 billions of conditions grounding the human conditions in their emergence and realization of what is realty.

My point;
Philosophical Realism [mind-independent] was merely out of evolution adaptation to facilitate survival which is driven by an illusion.

To drive human progress [morality and all else] toward the future, we need to side-step philosophical realism where necessary and give attention to the more realistic philosophical view from anti-philosophical realism, i.e. the Kantian kind.

It is not going to be easy and Kant warned of the dominant forces and bondage of philosophical realism;

• Kant wrote:
  Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them {the illusions}.
  After long effort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error;
  but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion [of mind-independence re philosophical realism], which unceasingly mocks and torments him. B397

VA is conflating

conditioned on.....

used to say that something will happen only if something else also happens. Payment is conditioned on/upon completion of the project.

with
conditioned by....

to be trained or influenced to think or act in certain ways or to believe certain things.

And, again, he is telling us what was around when humans were not there to perceive it. The moon does not exist when we don't look at it, but hey
here's what was happening before organisms existed, let alone organisms with eyes. Here's a picture of what it looked like.

Here's the reality that existed independent of human minds that makes us the way we are.

Looks like another belief of the sadistic cult that VA must have spent most of his life in, was the idea that their minds or souls somehow existed outside reality. Like they were supernatural or something. Maybe VA is still struggling to convince himself of the opposite, deep down he still longs for independence, but I haven't seen anyone on this forum actually claim to exist independently of reality.