Philosophy Now Forum

as a person born in 1959, I was raised with X values.....
and a person born in 1980 will have slightly different values
and a person born in 2000 will again have slightly different values...
that is the subjective nature of existence... being born in
different times will have different values...

and the place of our birth will have an impact on our values...
America is the greatest country on earth is an particular
American value...and again, our socio-economic position
plays a role in our acquisition of values.;.. at birth,
my family was very wealthy, by age 10, we lived in poverty...
and most of my life has been on the very lower end of the socio-economic
scale.. today we are comfortably middle class...
and each step has, in part, guided what values I have taken....
(unlike most Americans, my wife and I could go for a couple of
months without a job and be fine)

and most people do describe their existence in terms of what I just
wrote.. I am a ... whatever occupation they are, I am middle class,
they describe their socio-economic class as a description of
who they are....

but is that the description we should be making about ourselves?

In the book I am currently reading, "German Philosophy 1760-1860
the Legacy of Idealism, by Terry Pinkard.... this line appears...
(talking about Kierkegaard)

" What does and ought to ultimately matter to me and what
should I do about it?"

How are we to decide that question? On what basis or standards
should we answer this question? we have as described above,
answers given to us as indoctrinations and education in
our socio-economic class... (different socio-economic classes will
have different answers to this question of ''what does or ought to matter
to me'')

we are driven to live our lives by values and beliefs given to us
by society, the state, the media, the church, our families..
that is what I mean by education/indoctrinations...

for example, the belief that there is a god is driven into us
by the church, state, media, family or our society....
we cannot, cannot escape these indoctrinations/education
given to us... but we can overcome them by discovering what
values/beliefs we actually hold for ourselves....this "overcoming"
is an long painful process that can last for decades or be completed
within a week.. think of the Zen saying I have quoted before:
(with Zen being the same as overcoming)

Before Zen, the mountains were stable, the sea was calm
and the river flowed in it path, during Zen, the mountains
danced, the sea was full of fury, and the river overflowed its banks,
and after Zen, the mountains were calm and the sea was a mirror,
and the river flowed once again in its banks...

with my overcoming, and it took years, I came into completely
different values/beliefs than I was born with/indoctrinated/
with/educated with....

the question of what does and ought to matter to me
and what should I do about it, is a question about values/beliefs...

instead of the indoctrinations/education of my youth, I came into
a different set of values and beliefs...instead of the society/state
wholesale belief in money, the creation of profits, of titles, of fame,
of buying and selling material possessions in hopes of securing
"happiness" I reject all of those values...if I had teachers, they
were the philosophers of old, Socrates was a tremendous
influence on me...(as he is to most people who contemplate
what it means to be human) and my other teachers were
(in no particular order) Spinoza, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Camus,
Henry Adams, William Barrett, Colin Wilson....non academic
thinkers/philosophers...

I am not interested in the mundane values of our current state/society,
the making of money and the seeking of fame and titles...
I seek out values through which I can live my life by....
I seek out what value can I use to hold, to use, ''as a way of life"
and thus explain my exploration of such values as order or freedom,
or justice.... as far as I can see, most people have empty,
valueless lives because they have not or cannot "overcome"
the values and beliefs they were born with...and such mass market
values, values that millions of people mindlessly follow,
is the point of such thinkers as Socrates and Kierkegaard....

(or said another way, we hold certain values/beliefs
because those values/beliefs will keep us looking good
to the others in our lives.. we hold certain values/beliefs
to gain the approval of others, not because those values/beliefs
have any cache as a "way of life" but we want to have
the approval of others and as Maslow has pointed out,
we want to belong, that is a fundamental psychological
need of human beings)

so we hold our beliefs and values because of the fear of
the disapproval of others...which includes the other that
is ingrained within all us.. with the indoctrination and education
we are given, that creates this other within ourselves...

what is morality/ethics? the indoctrinations, education
of our state/society/ family/ media and church....
and what does ethics/morality mean to you? what values
should one hold to be ethical/moral? and this idea of
morality/ethics is just another example of the creation of
the other within us...do not underestimate this creation
of the other within us...for that is the power of indoctrinations/
beliefs/education....Goethe once wrote, "alas, I have but two souls
within my breast" and that means we have one soul being us,
our genuine/true soul and we have the second soul being
those indoctrinations/beliefs that are the source of the
other within us... and for most of us, we end up censoring
that true self within us.. and why? to gain the favor or
to be with the crowd.. we might be seen less favorably if
others could see our true/genuine self...

that is the power of the other within us...

alas, out of time as work beckons and I am going to
be late as it is...

Kropotkin

as I look about American, I see deep unhappiness,
disconnection, alienation, discontentment...
and we must ask ourselves why?

I hold that this is because we follow the other within
ourselves, the indoctrinations of the state and society..
we ignore or worse, don't even know the true/real self within
us... this is what the Existentialists talked about when they
wrote about "authenticity" we are not authentic when we
follow the other, the indoctrinations and beliefs of the state/society,
we can only become/be authentic if, if we listen to and follow
our true selves... America is quite busy with rampant drug use
and alcohol and gamboling and watching TV... it is a means
of avoiding our true selves... and why? Because we are afraid
that others, including ourselves, won't like us if we were to show
our true self, our true face...
we follow the crowd in hopes of finding esteem and a sense
of belonging within that crowd... but true esteem and a sense of belonging
really come from self.... and we cannot hear that true self because
it is buried under our indoctrinated/educated self...

our collective and individual shame and discontentment will
end, once we get back to our true self... our true voice....

Kropotkin

"Plants are photosynthetic means ...?"

"Animals are not!"

"Yes, that and ...?"

"Mushrooms are delicious!"

"Yes, that and ...?"

"Mosquitoes are insects!"

"Yes, that and ...?"

"Potatoes need water!"

"Yes!! Close! Go on ...?"

"Potatoes don't ..."

"Exactly!"

"Whaaat?!"

"Next topic! We will now study the digestive system of the carnivorous Venus Fly Trap. Turn to page 459!"

Well. Let's remember that about half the nation was indoctinated with values that liberals have. So, if a child was brought up under liberal parenting, this would not have been the values that PK generally complains about. So, those people grow up and some of them rebel against their parents, or spend time exploring valuea and beliefs and become conservatives and/or very materialistic. Is this good because they went against their indoctrination?

Changing beliefs can be for all sorts of reasons and people may not even be conscious of them.
Changing beliefs and values may or may not be a good thing for others, given when those values are.

Unless one thinks all values are fine, but the important thing is to change from the ones one was indoctrinated in.

be true to thy self....

the GOP/MAGA path is quite the opposite...
demand that everyone, EVERYONE, follows the one
path.. and that path is why they oppose anyone who
is different.. the GOP/MAGA crowd has publicly
stated their opposition to and in no particular order..

Liberalism, gays, transgender, democrats, minorities,
education, civil rights, people of color, life, vaccines,

(even as the vast majority of Americans are already vaccinated
to various illnesses like polio, measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox...
to name just a few vaccines we are already vaccinated against)

sexuality (unless its little girls on display in beauty pageants)
drugs, being handicap, atheism, abortions,
to name a few things
that the GOP/MAGA crowd has publicly oppose....

the remarkable thing is that what the GOP/MAGA crowd wants
more than any than anything is a homogeneous society, state, religion,
sexuality and culture.... anything that is different than white,
Anglo-Saxon, protestant, heterosexual is fought against and even
legally challenged...the GOP/MAGA crowd want everyone to look
the same, act the same, love the same, hold the same beliefs
and think the same....(note the GOP/MAGA crowd attempt
to have a purified party... even St. Raygun would not fit into
today's GOP/MAGA party...he compromised too much)

so let us take one such instance, the GOP/MAGA war on gays and
transgender people.... be true to thine own self, and they do
just that and in doing so, they engage in beliefs and actions,
that the GOP/MAGA party opposes.... but in preventing them
from being their own true self, are we not alienating them,
disconnecting them from the state/the society/ the culture?
forcing people to lead lives that isn't who they are, how is that
possibly beneficial for us as a society, when we actively discourage,
disconnect and alienated segments of society from being who they are?

in forcing people to no longer being true to who they are,
we are forcing people to become inauthentic.... to lead
fake and phony lives to please others.. how is that helpful
or even useful to a society/state?

the fact is by forcing people back into the "closet"
we are mentally and psychologically damaging people....
and is that really the goal of a society? To actively engage
in damaging people... isn't that what the Nazi's did when
they legally, legally denied rights to the Jews, to gays,
to communist, Gypsie's? and you might say, we aren't
the Nazi's... but the GOP/MAGA crowd is doing exactly
what the Nazi's did... how is the current crowd actions
of denying rights based on being different, any different than the Nazi's?

to prevent people from being who they are, you are actively
engaged in the harmful, damaging of people..
of disconnecting and alienating people based on nothing
more than bigotry and prejudice...not very solid grounds
for denigrating an entire group of Americans
just to appease the GOP/MAGA crowd need for a
homogeneous society/state.. one that looks alike, acts alike,
thinks alike, believes alike and loves alike.... no one stands
out or believes anything different than what the society/state
holds to be true....the GOP/MAGA crowd MOTTO...

"Let us turn all American's into robots"!

Kropotkin

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 1:35 pm Well. Let's remember that about half the nation was indoctinated with values that liberals have. So, if a child was brought up under liberal parenting, this would not have been the values that PK generally complains about. So, those people grow up and some of them rebel against their parents, or spend time exploring valuea and beliefs and become conservatives and/or very materialistic. Is this good because they went against their indoctrination?

Changing beliefs can be for all sorts of reasons and people may not even be conscious of them.
Changing beliefs and values may or may not be a good thing for others, given when those values are.

Unless one thinks all values are fine, but the important thing is to change from the ones one was indoctrinated in.

K: ahhh, my stalker has once again, misinterpreted my post,
but at least you are consistent in your misinterpreting my
post....I give you credit for that....

anyway, my call has been to reevaluate your indoctrinations
and beliefs... my call hasn't been about "you must hold my
values and beliefs" not at all... I use myself as an example
of how the overcoming, this reevaluation goes...

if you have reevaluated your indoctrinations and beliefs
and still hold to god, more power to you...
my basic contention is that most people hold beliefs/indoctrinations
from their childhood because they never actually engaged
in thinking if their values/beliefs/indoctrinations are actually
their own beliefs/values... are the values/beliefs you hold,
actually your beliefs/values, or were those values/beliefs
indoctrinated into you as a child?

why do you hold the values/beliefs you hold and why those values/beliefs,
and not other values/beliefs?
what is the justification for holding your beliefs as oppose
to holding other values/beliefs? why those values/beliefs?

I am not asking anyone to become a "Kropotkin light"
I am asking that you know why you hold the beliefs
you hold... are they your true beliefs or were they
indoctrinated/educated into you?

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 5:32 pm K: ahhh, my stalker

Stalker? I think you're confused about what a philosophy forum is about.

has once again, misinterpreted my post,
but at least you are consistent in your misinterpreting my
post....I give you credit for that....

anyway, my call has been to reevaluate your indoctrinations
and beliefs... my call hasn't been about "you must hold my
values and beliefs" not at all... I use myself as an example
of how the overcoming, this reevaluation goes...

I never said that you said people must hold your beliefs. In fact I was not assuming that at all.

if you have reevaluated your indoctrinations and beliefs
and still hold to god, more power to you...

Right but you never mention anything like this unless someone points out the issue. You referred to me as a stalker, but now you showed something about your beliefs that wasn't at all clear. I am not sure what you think it gained by labeling someone insultingly at the beginning of a response. I suppose it's part of your tolerance and acceptance.

my basic contention is that most people hold beliefs/indoctrinations
from their childhood because they never actually engaged
in thinking if their values/beliefs/indoctrinations are actually
their own beliefs/values... are the values/beliefs you hold,
actually your beliefs/values, or were those values/beliefs
indoctrinated into you as a child?

Right, this was utterly clear already. When I challenged your ideas, some part of them, earlier at PN, you assumed that my ideas hadn't changed since childhood - merely because I disagreed with you about something - and also that I had conservative values.

IOW it was inconceivable to you that someone might disagree with you if they had challenged the values they were indoctrinated in.

Which is extremely odd. Someone who has learned to question and analyze and disagree and probe in relation to indoctrinated ideas, is quite likely to continue this. It is odd to react like questioning your ideas must necessarily mean that one cannot question those ideas one was given in childhood.

Sure, some indoctrinated people, who have not ever questioned their indoctrination, may disagree with you, PK. But that you think only such people might is very strange.

You also seemed to think that only a conservative could possibly disagree with anything you say. I hope I don't even need to point out how odd that idea is.

why do you hold the values/beliefs you hold and why those values/beliefs,
and not other values/beliefs?
what is the justification for holding your beliefs as oppose
to holding other values/beliefs? why those values/beliefs?

I am not asking anyone to become a "Kropotkin light"
I am asking that you know why you hold the beliefs
you hold... are they your true beliefs or were they
indoctrinated/educated into you?

Right but you are missing the point of my post. I get that you see questioning your childhood indoctrination is good. We're on the same page with that.

But given that you repeatedly categorize and psychoanalyze conservatives and also accuse them, but not liberals, for nto having challenged their childhood values, it is as if you don't understand that
liberals also can simply retain their childhood values
conservatives have shifted and rebelled against conservative parents - for all sorts of reasons
and
that given how harsly you judge conservatives but not liberals, you implicitly seem quite glad that those liberals are liberals with their better psychology that you don't judge. Even if they haven't questioned their childhoods.

So, you didn't really respond to my post.

You found a meaning that wasn't mine and critiqued that.

Perhaps every schoolchild knows what all this is about! A man once pointed to a calculus and went, "This, this is life!" I didn't realize it then - it was how long ago?, 14000 years?, I'm mad, yes - but it wasn't the whitest calculus I'd ever seen - I'd struck it with another white calculus, recapitulating as it were, prehistoric fire-making - he was referring to. I now know what ... to hell with this!!! ... neti neti.