Philosophy Now Forum

ok, I have spent some time investigating epistemology,
but how do we get from epistemology to ethics/morality?

what knowledge is necessary for us engage in the question
of ethics? what knowledge do we need for us to
engage in the question of ethics?

the sun is 93 million miles from us, ok, that knowledge doesn't get us
to any meaningful understanding of ethics.... so what knowledge
will we need to get us some understanding of ethics?

questions of motion, questions of science, questions of quantum physics,
don't lead us to any meaningful understanding of ethics...
how our lungs work or what the sun is made of can't explain to
us this question of ethics...

so, let is investigate ethics/morality..

Ethics: a set of moral principles, especially ones relating to or
affirming a specified group, field, or form of conduct...

the word Ethics derive from the Greek which means, (the science of)
morals...

I don't think this explanation actually helps us... so let us try this,

Morals: 1. concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior
and the goodness or badness of human character...

concerned with or derived from the code of interpersonal
behavior that is considered right or acceptable in a particular society...

2. holding to or manifesting ''high'' principles for proper conduct...

this word, morals is derived from Latin, mos, mor- custom. (plural)

in a very real sense, we derive our morals, ethics from custom...

Custom: a traditional and widely accepted way of behaving or doing
something that is specific to a particular society, place, or time....

so if our forefathers acting with certain behavior, we too must
act in the same way... that is the essence of morality/ethics...
traditionally accepted way of behavior...

and so far so good, but there is a major problem here....
our forefathers had an entirely different environment...
our science, our technology, our TV and internet and computers
and cars and space travel, our forefathers didn't have any of that...
cars and airplanes for example came about roughly the same time,
around 1900...123 years ago...according to the 1900 census,
America had 76.3 million people...today, California has over 40 million
people alone....and New York, as a state, has over 20 million people..
thus two states have almost as many people as the entire US had
in 1900......given these numbers, can we have the same morals/principles
while a having vastly different environment?

I don't see how...in 1900, America was a "Christian" country...
and today, over 15% of the American population self identifies
as atheist...or roughly 50 million people in America self identifies
as not believing in god... almost the whole population of America
in 1900...this "Knowledge" has an impact on how we think about
ethics/morals....but it doesn't give us any guidance as to what
our ethics/morals ought to be..

ok, let us try this thought experiment...let us say, we develop AI,
in the next 10 years...do we treat AI, as ethically/morally as we
do human beings? our environment changed, and so our
practical concerns must change...does the development of
AI, change our day to day ethics/morals?

now given that our economic system, capitalism is devoid of
ethical/moral concerns, we have millions of people, here
in the US and millions more around the world,
living with a bare minimum of being able to maintain existence,
how does having AI impact our moral and ethical concerns?
and one might say, we barely treat human beings with any
respect or concern with their needs and wants today,
for human beings require such things as food, water, education,
health care, shelter, and our psychological needs of live, esteem,
safety/security and belonging.. and frankly, we don't even
cover those basis needs of our fellow human beings...
and what happens after the AI event?

but Kropotkin, we have no idea what will happen.. and that is my point,
we don't understand or are able to explain morals/ethics, as an
system because our morals/ethics are done "ad hoc" as the situation
requires from us...we don't systematically think about morals or ethics,
we say, today our morals are such and such.... we can't do any better than
that right now... and that is what "ad hoc" means.. of the moment...

and why don't we make a systematic attempt to create morals/ethics?

because we are too busy trying to increase our GDP or seek out
our baubles of existence, money, titles, power, material possessions,
fame.... who has time to work out ethics/morals when we are to
busy chasing down a raise? or seeking a new title?
or as I am doing today, working out my retirement... the basics
of how I am going to retire.. which has nothing to do with ethics/morals...
but it sure fills my time with thoughts...

but what is more important in life than the working out of how
we human beings, social creatures as designed by evolution,
and force to exist within a social structure.
Human beings must exist within a social structure... we can't do
anything else...and how do act and interact within that necessary
social structure must become a major concern for us... especially
given the fact that we live in an entirely new and different
environment than our forefathers...or do you think Lincoln worked
out his ''Gettysburg address" on his cell phone?

the basic idea of human existence lies in the tools we
have and we can use....our tools determines our way of life...
if all we have is stone flints to exist with, it creates an different
environment than if we have hammers and nails and saws,
and we have a totally different environment if we have
cell phones, computers and airplanes and soon, AI...
but we haven't even caught up to this basic fact....

the tools within an environment changes the environment...
it changes us... it changes how we react to each other....
look at a table in a restaurant.. and what do you see?
recently the wife and I had dinner in a restaurant and
we saw table after table of people, all on their cell phones...
few if any body was talking to each other.. in the
break room at work, we might have a dozen people
in their and all 12 will be on their cell phones...
the tools changes the environment...and that change
in the environment must be accounted for in our morals/ethics....

so, tell me.... what will be our morals/ethics after AI?

Kropotkin

as I have to go to work, think about this....
what is the relationship between ethics/morality
and political science? for doesn't political science require,
to function, a working definition of ethics/morals? how do
we work out political science without some sense of
morality? food for thought...

Kropotkin

ok, we have a saying, "Knowledge is power"
but has I have said before, power is a bauble, not
permanent... many with money, fame, titles, and power
have lose it all in a day...

and what knowledge do we have that is power?
the earth is 93 million miles from earth? that the average person's
heartbeat is between 60 and 100 times a minute?
and how does that knowledge give us any power or wealth or
fame?

only certain, specific knowledge can give us something resembling
power, or wealth or fame...not all knowledge is created equal...
so given this understanding that only some knowledge can give us
our desires, which knowledge actually has value or is worth pursuing?

as I have noted, we can lose fame or wealth or titles or material possessions,
what knowledge can we hold or find that is worth pursuing?

some might point to such non-material knowledge such as finding
happiness or seeking out love... this is a better use of our seeking,
for we can feed ourselves and we can educate ourselves but
a major part of being human is to fulfill our psychological
needs...such as seeking love or pursuing safety/security or finding
esteem or a sense of belonging... and these psychological needs
are found wanting in our capitalistic system...I have worked
for over 40 years and have witnessed 1st hand the soul crushing demands
of capitalism... there is very little attempt in capitalism to give its
workers anything beyond the bare minimum of money to achieve
the even more basic bodily needs of gaining food, water, shelter,
little less achieving the psychological needs of love or a sense
of belonging...live a life within capitalism, as most of us do,
and what is the final verdict? It is a waste of our lives...
the only thing capitalism offers us is the baubles of existence,
money, fame, titles, material possessions, and occasionally,
power.... nothing worth keeping or pursuing for a lifetime...

let us return for a moment to philosophy original goal,
which is to be a way of life.... Platonism is meant to be
a way of life as is the schools of ancient Greece...
as Christianity is also meant to be a way of life, not
something we give, at best, lip service to when it suits our needs...
moern Christianity is nothing more than dressed up hypocrisy...
Pro-life but still in favor of capital punishment?
will happily allow torture to others in order to "protect"
ourselves? have no problem with cops killing innocent
civilians such Breonna Tayor, you are a pretend Christian if
you are not outraged by these deaths...

No, a commitment to a way of life is what is demanded by
the ancient schools of philosophy and the church...
and what is lacking today... what are you actually committed to?
what do you practice as a "way of life?" nothing...

let us take a look at another aspect of philosophy..
the seeking of the aesthetic.. the search for beauty or
a concern/appreciation with beauty...

and why that particular aspect of philosophy?
because the seeking or concern with beauty can become
a "way of life", seeking out the aesthetic in our world, our
lives can become a lifelong commitment/ a way of life for us...
and a much more profitable one, than say capitalism ever will be...
although specific beauty will fade, the general idea of beauty
will remain... what is specifically beautiful in our times, changes,
have different "taste" today because of our milieu,
our environment, our education, our socioeconomic status...
when we were born can impact what we think of as beauty...

but the pursuit of beauty can be a lifelong engagement..
a way of life...but what else can become a lifelong engagement,
a way of life? and not just as a means of putting food on the table...

Kropotkin

we can take specific values or beliefs and have them
become a "way of life" as something worth pursuing all our lives...

some specific values or beliefs worth pursuing all our lives are
values like love, justice, peace, freedom...

a life spent pursuing justice is a lifetime well spent...
a lifetime spent pursuing love or freedom is a lifetime well spent...
seeking out justice as a "way of life" is far more productive than
spending a lifetime pursuing the baubles of existence....

and what is justice? Justice is equality before the law,
and equal in terms of the political, social, economic and
educational aspects of our lives...and why Kropotkin, why
is pursuing justice a more valuable goal than the pursuit of
wealth or fame or titles? Because justice can be applied
to everyone, everyone benefits if we have an equal
society/state/civilization...whereas in our individual pursuit
of wealth or power or fame or material possessions, who benefits?
only you and that is assuming you actually achieve wealth or
power or fame or titles... most people don't achieve even
those modest goals.... they are left in a state of want
and if they do actually achieve such baubles, it can disappear
in a minute...but seeking out justice or freedom can benefit
everyone, every single day...if, if we hold to the goal of
achieving freedom or justice.. every day, 24/7/365...

and recall, human beings are social creatures, being who
not only want but need to be part of the social structure of
society and the state.... that is what we have imprinted on us
from evolution.. our programming from evolution is to be social
creatures and be a part of the social structure of humanity...
to achieve our psychological needs of belonging and safety/security,
we must belong to a society, a state.. we are unable to achieve our
programming by ourselves, we cannot achieve belonging or esteem
without a social structure... a society...

thus we are programmed to belong within a society, a state..
as social beings.. we cannot do anything else...a cat can only be
a cat and a dog can only be a dog.... we are programmed to be
human and that means our existence is a social one...thus seeking
out justice or freedom.. is a social imperative...to benefit our
society, our state benefits ourselves... whereas working within
such ism's as capitalism only benefits ourselves.. in seeking baubles
such as wealth or fame or power or titles... how do we share that with
others? we cannot....

or said another way, Greed is not good because it doesn't benefit
the society/ the state.... greed is only meant as a means of achieving
personal wealth or personal power or personal titles...
greed does not achieve any improvement within our social structure,
the society/ the state..... as dictated by our programming which is
about our being social creatures, our being part of the whole...
where we find love, esteem, food, water, a sense of belonging,
only within a social structure can we find these things...

and seeking out justice or freedom benefits a society, the state
because it benefits everyone, not just the doer or actor....

seeking out justice or freedom allows us to work within the
inherent design of evolution in which the value of a single
person is found within their work to build up or maintain
the state, the society...

not the cold use of the individual within the isms of
our times, communism or capitalism which devalues
and denies the human being and their values...
both communism and capitalism practices nihilism..
because of their denial of human being and their values....
we can seek out the becoming of the state in terms of seeking
out values like justice or freedom without becoming victims
of that state or society...without becoming pawns of
the sweeping movements of such isms as is done in
capitalism and communism.... we can be a part of
the state or a society without sacrificing who we are
and our own personal goals...whereas if we work toward
the benefit of capitalism or communism, we are only working to
devalue, dehumanize ourselves... because that is all
capitalism and communism can do, have an engagement with
nihilism....as seeking out wealth or power or titles can only
lead to nihilism... the devaluation of human beings....
whereas if we seek out justice or love, we are affirming
human beings...we are affirming our own self worth...
in seeking out justice or freedom or love....

what are you seeking and why?

Kropotkin