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Just wanted to tweak a little. When we think of belief, I am guessing many leap to things like the belief in God. Big beliefs about the existence of certain things. But beliefs have to do with all sorts of things, including things we do all the time.Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm "In Denial of Death (1973), the philosopher and anthropologist Ernest Becker argues that humans throw themselves into belief systems owing to a fear of death. Becker suggests that as we become acquainted with the fact that we all die we use religious belief systems to console us that death is not the end, or secular belief systems to help us think of projects bigger than ourselves that will continue when we die.
I suspect that belief acquires its inertia not from fear of death, but from recognition of the unpleasantness of uncertainty. Beliefs give us a sense, however small, of safety against contingency, and assurance against uncertainty."
Great point! Uncertainty about all kinds of things can be very unsettling. Thinking we 'know' or have assurance can be a balm. It can also be a blindfold.
I get the sort of conceptual pun.
Every one is no one.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:25 amI get the sort of conceptual pun.
But, many people want to be nothing. Selves that hate life so much they can't bear it. Some remove themselves physically. Other conceptually. Others with numbness if they can get it. Not saying these approaches work or not. Just saying that some people, in the hopes they will, make these choices. Considering oneself nothing is also a story with motivations.
Yes, I know you think this is the case. (iow: it's a belief)
(Hating life, or loving it, it's all the same
a belief) (No one has any motive or agenda here, it only appears so.
a belief)Maybe we've just reached a point where we are sick and tired of being sick and tired. And that if we have to watch this same old boring worn out movie of life anymore, we are literally going to go insane, so, that's when we get smart and decide to exit the screen on which the movie is being played out.
That's why humans made up the idea of a Loving God who when worshipped will save you from the doom and lift you into the realms of heaven.
Sometimes people try to destroy you, precisely because they recognise your power
with a link to someone who tells us why.What is the artificial dream of conceptual separation? And why do we maintain this position, this duality?
Implicit: you will make plans about some, at least, of what is in your personal control.I'm not making any plans for what may or may not happen beyond my personal control.
Iwannaplato, this is just more story telling.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:48 amYes, I know you think this is the case. (iow: it's a belief)
(Hating life, or loving it, it's all the samea belief)
Not in my experience.
(No one has any motive or agenda here, it only appears so.
Then perhaps you will stop telling people what their motives are or explaining/acknowledging yours....Maybe we've just reached a point where we are sick and tired of being sick and tired. And that if we have to watch this same old boring worn out movie of life anymore, we are literally going to go insane, so, that's when we get smart and decide to exit the screen on which the movie is being played out.That's why humans made up the idea of a Loving God who when worshipped will save you from the doom and lift you into the realms of heaven.Sometimes people try to destroy you, precisely because they recognise your powerwith a link to someone who tells us why.What is the artificial dream of conceptual separation? And why do we maintain this position, this duality?
Implicit: you will make plans about some, at least, of what is in your personal control.I'm not making any plans for what may or may not happen beyond my personal control.
WHY?
Yes how EXTREME people CAN BE 'you', "lacewing", HAVE PROVED ABSOLUTELY here.
YET here 'you' are "lacewing", one of the MOST STUBBORN ones HOLDING ONTO and STICKING TO 'your' OWN BELIEF here, INSTEAD of even just 'trying to' UNCOVER truth and evolving.
BUT, because of your OWN PERSONAL UPBRINGING you just can NOT get past the fact that there just MIGHT BE 'MORE' to what you CURRENTLY BELIEVE is true, when this is being written.
But, to you, there is OBVIOUSLY 'NO MORE' to what you BELIEVE is true, nowadays.
OBVIOUSLY this one ALSO, like ALL of the other posters here, has absolutely NO idea NOR clue YET as to what the 'Mind' IS, EXACTLY.Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm The article in the OP presents some very interesting points and considerations. (I'm using italics and quotes to show excerpts from the article.)
"The more we learn about the human mind, and especially about its deep-rooted psychological biases, the more our minds seem almost tailor-made for belief-preservation. This makes it difficult and even unpleasant to challenge long-held beliefs through reason."
YES, SOME people REALLY DO BELIEVE and WILL NOT STOP INSISTING that God does NOT exist, just like SOME REALLY DO BELIEVE and WILL NOT STOP INSISTING that God DOES exist. ALL the while NONE of these ones ACTUALLY EVEN KNOW what God IS, EXACTLY, YET.
YES THEY DO, and "lacewing" is A PRIME EXAMPLE of this 'behavior'.
But 'belief' is NOT 'crucial' AT ALL.
Well this is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of BLATANT Falseness and ABSURDITY.
Is this WHY 'you' BELIEVE (in) 'things', "lacewing"?Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm Becker suggests that as we become acquainted with the fact that we all die we use religious belief systems to console us that death is not the end, or secular belief systems to help us think of projects bigger than ourselves that will continue when we die.
I suspect that belief acquires its inertia not from fear of death, but from recognition of the unpleasantness of uncertainty.
Beliefs give us a sense, however small, of safety against contingency, and assurance against uncertainty."
Great point! Uncertainty about all kinds of things can be very unsettling.
I do NOT SEE this FEAR that 'you', human beings, HAVE of 'uncertainty'.Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm "While reason helps us cope with uncertainty by giving us a means to think things through, belief helps us cope with uncertainty by allowing us to feel respite from it. If all we ever did was maintain our existing beliefs, we would never progress or adapt in a changing world. But if all we ever did was reason, we would never be able to rest in any security about anything we believe."
Very true!
But 'you' do NOT ALWAYS 'dance' "lacewing", and this is BECAUSE 'you' ARE STUCK in your OWN BELIEFS here. 'you', literally, can NOT move, evolve, NOR progress here. you are being HELD STEADFAST by those BELIEFS of YOURS.
you SPEAK and SAY 'this' as though you have ONLY just now COME-TO-REALIZE that it is BETTER to LOOK AT and SEE 'the world/things' from the Truly OPEN and wide-eyed view and perspective.
So those WITHOUT BELIEFS, which WAS ALL of 'you', ARE and WERE NOTHING AT ALL, right "dontaskme"?
You're welcome, story sharing is fun.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:06 am
Thanks for the kiss. Yes, I know that is your story...sometimes.
Here we have ANOTHER EXAMPLE of one who BELIEVES that 'we' MUST BELIEVE, and could NOT possible live WITHOUT BELIEF.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 amJust wanted to tweak a little. When we think of belief, I am guessing many leap to things like the belief in God. Big beliefs about the existence of certain things. But beliefs have to do with all sorts of things, including things we do all the time.Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm "In Denial of Death (1973), the philosopher and anthropologist Ernest Becker argues that humans throw themselves into belief systems owing to a fear of death. Becker suggests that as we become acquainted with the fact that we all die we use religious belief systems to console us that death is not the end, or secular belief systems to help us think of projects bigger than ourselves that will continue when we die.
I suspect that belief acquires its inertia not from fear of death, but from recognition of the unpleasantness of uncertainty. Beliefs give us a sense, however small, of safety against contingency, and assurance against uncertainty."
Great point! Uncertainty about all kinds of things can be very unsettling. Thinking we 'know' or have assurance can be a balm. It can also be a blindfold.
For example, we have large sets of heuristics about how to achieve certain things: money, friends, romance, creative works: how to avoid certain things: being looked down on, being safe, figuring out the right things to do
and more.
Many of these we follow not based on evidence.
Then there are microversions of this. We have things like 'there I have analyzed that argument/idea/person/situation long enough quale. I don't need to look at it any more. IOW we use intuition about our own effforts, abilities, effectiveness, specific achievement in the moment all the time, without evidence - certainly nothing that would be accepted in a peer reviewed science journal.
These macro assessments/heuristics and then also microversions lead to decisions that affect ourselves and other people. They are not small stuff: they lead to voting choices, moral choices, assessments of parenting techniques or specific actions and attitudes in parenting, how we relate to other people and more.
These heuristics and intuitive assessment processes are working for us, we assume, think, have decided, have faith in. And of course, perhaps they just seem to. Many we are not even conscious of.
I'd also like to add: IOW it's not just about emotions, feeling safe and good. Beliefs are running a lot of our day to day activities (and actually are playing a role in how we reason - something people do not like to notice. In a sense you cannot reason without beliefs. Belief that your memory is generally ok. Belief that you have a decent grasp on the meaning of the words involved. and so on.)
Here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of ANOTHER BELIEF, which AFFECTS or EFFECTS the RATIONALITY of this one.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 am
It's not like some shiny day in the future we will be completely rational.
Well this ANSWERS the question I could have ASKED before.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 am That simply can't happen. Intuitional processes and as if we know cognitive processes and ad hoc assessments and axioms and habits are a necessary part of doing anything.
AND, WHEN, and IF, one EVER BECOMES Truly RATIONAL, then 'they' do NOT HAVE BELIEFS, nor even ANY 'need' FOR BELIEFS.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 am As a side note: I think it's poor language use to set beliefs in one category and rationality in another. People believe the conclusions they draw through reasoning. And they use beliefs as premises and arguments in their reasoning. In philosophy knowledge is often justified true beliefs, that is beliefs with strong justication for believing in them. A type of belief.
Oh, I reasoned about this so X is true. You just believe that.
Well, if you're rational (at least sometimes) you know that your truth may turn out to be a not so justified belief at a later time.
