Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm So how do you resolve this dilemma?

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:53 am

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

What, pray tell, is the reason for this doubt you're talking about?

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:20 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm So how do you resolve this dilemma?

I resolve it by doing what any sensible person would do; ie. nothing.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:46 am

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:53 am

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

What, pray tell, is the reason for this doubt you're talking about?

The point as I illustrated is that there exist two options for when doubt exists whereas in materialism there is only one option allowable.

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:50 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:46 am

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:53 am

What, pray tell, is the reason for this doubt you're talking about?

The point as I illustrated is that there exist two options for when doubt exists whereas in materialism there is only one option allowable.

Ah, I see. Have you tried reframing the issue in all materialistic frameworks?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:57 pm Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

It seems like you are treating doubt as ontology.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm How does the existence of doubt entail that there must be more than one option?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm Does desire or confusion or fear or mulling ör any other cognitive state create more options?

How?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm How does my not being sure that X will happen entail that a couple of things can happen?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm If I doubt I exist do I exist less? If I doubt there is a state t coming, does it become half an outcome?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 pm Why does doubt have ontological power and a kind of magical one it seems?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:25 pm It has power. You pause for a while when you have a doubt.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:58 pm

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:50 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:46 am
The point as I illustrated is that there exist two options for when doubt exists whereas in materialism there is only one option allowable.

Ah, I see. Have you tried reframing the issue in all materialistic frameworks?

What do you mean by all?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:38 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:25 pm It has power. You pause for a while when you have a doubt.

Person walking utterly determined. Person has a moment of doubt, utterly determined. This doubt imagines there are several possible outcomes, but there aren't. Person decides to go to where they were always heading.

I understand that doubt can be related to a seeming couple of options, but that doesn't mean anything else was going to happen. Just like seeing an illusory oasis in the desert doesn't mean there were two possible futures one will an oasis one without.

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:57 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:58 pm

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:50 am

Ah, I see. Have you tried reframing the issue in all materialistic frameworks?

What do you mean by all?

Atheists claim there is no god.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:19 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:38 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:25 pm It has power. You pause for a while when you have a doubt.

Person walking utterly determined. Person has a moment of doubt, utterly determined. This doubt imagines there are several possible outcomes, but there aren't. Person decides to go to where they were always heading.

I understand that doubt can be related to a seeming couple of options, but that doesn't mean anything else was going to happen. Just like seeing an illusory oasis in the desert doesn't mean there were two possible futures one will an oasis one without.

So to you only one option is real and another one is an illusion?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:22 pm

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:57 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:58 pm
What do you mean by all?

Atheists claim there is no god.

No, I am not interested in any sort of doubt related to the existence of God. By doubt, I mean that you are in a situation with two options and you don't know what to do because the outcomes of the choices are not clear to you, like buying a lottery ticket.