Philosophy Now Forum

do we follow philosophers such as Descartes or Spinoza?
which is to say, we doubt unto the "truth"
do we think as Spinoza did that that all is part of god...
or do we hold to the scientific principles as guiding our lives?
upon what principles are we to guide our lives on?
or do we accept modern beliefs that democracy should
be our guiding light?

do we follow Plato and Aristotle in which the philosophical
life is best served by us living our values, to use
philosophy as a way of life... is that what it means to be human?

or to use religion as being a way of life... in following Jesus or
the Buddha as a way of life? not to study or pray to, but in
actually, practicing as a way of life? Is that the path human
existence? or do we practice the modern way of praying to Mammon?
following as a way of life, the baubles of existence.., seeking
titles, money, power, fame and material goods? or perhaps in the
American values of working, producing, consuming?

The Kantian questions of ''what am I to do?''
have you ever questioned, what am I to do?
and honestly tried to come up with an answer?

I doubt few here have even tried to attempt this act of
honesty.. but ask yourself, what am I to do?

Kropotkin

This is (not) the right question.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:39 pm The Kantian questions of ''what am I to do?''
have you ever questioned, what am I to do?
and honestly tried to come up with an answer?

I doubt few here have even tried to attempt this act of
honesty.. but ask yourself, what am I to do?

Kropotkin

How are we to live?
Well, first it's probably a good idea not to start off a topic by insulting the people reading that topic and implicitly declaring superiority to them.
Then it's probably good if one realizes that most people have in fact asked themselves 'what am I to do?' Perhaps they didn't have the resources or skills to really look themselves in a way that would satisfy you, but unless the goal is to alienate your readers, there's probably a better and clearer way to investigate this.

For me the question what am I to do arises in a lot of contexts. Generally where I think there is a problem, with me, with others, with things. As part of what I have done to earn a living, I have taught. I come out of extremely progressive educational approaches. That's where I learned, and that's how I'd prefer to teach: the students are in the center, I am not a cop, I am a resource, I don't fill heads, I help people learn, they have their own motors, their interests guide, we collaborate.

Here's the rub. This works well with many people. But....it can take a long time for some before they understand that they don't have to kiss my ass, I am not their motor, they need to be their own motors, you don't need dominance in education and so on. Different cultures create students with incredibly different expecations of the teacher and student roles.

So, when I deal with a group of students who are from cultures where they cannot at this moment be their own motors unless they are afraid of me, told what to do, and are not used to being driven by their own interests, haven't been allowed to be creative, make up stuff, make mistakes, explore, test ideas, not parrot....

I can do them a disservice if I don't modify my approach. And it's hard. It feel wrong to my bones to do many of the things they are used to teachers doing. But I noticed immediately that those of my peers who did better with the same target group, did include a traditional teacher dominance role. Of course it was vastly milder than what these people experienced in their home countries. But there was enough so that there was less culture shock.

So, how do I deal with them? How much of that tradition role do I take on? How much is my motivation to get good results for myself? IOW they can be short term gains in being a traditional teacher, but long term losses. At some point they are going to need to learn how to be their own motors. Perhaps a 'failure' in my class will be the first step in realizing that it is a good thing to not be controlled. To take over their own learning. And I can certainly inform them of what I see as part of the issue there. Then again, I do this and my students will fail more than they need in the name of long term character changes.

More issues: do I tell them about this issue? That I am deliberately modifying my role to one that I don't, at root, think is the best one, in an ideal world? (I do tend to do this and this has led to some interesting discussions of human nature, how teachers and students should see their roles, how learning takes place, what is knowledge and more).

And then all the issues around how do I get comfortable going against (in a way) my own values in a specific situation? and to some degree my own temperment? Or what to do when my own values clash?

Which can be put another way: How do I change myself so I can do things I'd prefer not to but that I decide are the best option? The core part of that question is how do I change myself?

Not easy. I have slowly over recent terms shifting and it is better as far as I can tell. With other groups, I keep my progressive approach as a totality.

This is (not) the right answer!

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:39 pm The Kantian questions of ''what am I to do?''
have you ever questioned, what am I to do?
and honestly tried to come up with an answer?

I doubt few here have even tried to attempt this act of
honesty.. but ask yourself, what am I to do?

Kant's "What can I do" cannot stand alone.
It is part of a triad of,

1. What can I know? -epistemology
2. What can I do - Morality & Ethics
3. What can I hope for? - Aesthetic & teleology - Perpetual Peace.

To be effective we need an iterative problem solving technique, i.e.

Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193

The Basic Problem Solving Technique entails the following;
1. Defining the problem.
2. Generating alternatives.
3. Evaluating and selecting alternatives.
4. Implementing solutions.
5.Feedback and Control re 1.

We're to live like most Europeans or like some Europeans.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:39 pm do we follow philosophers such as Descartes or Spinoza?
which is to say, we doubt unto the "truth"
do we think as Spinoza did that that all is part of god...
or do we hold to the scientific principles as guiding our lives?
upon what principles are we to guide our lives on?
or do we accept modern beliefs that democracy should
be our guiding light?

do we follow Plato and Aristotle in which the philosophical
life is best served by us living our values, to use
philosophy as a way of life... is that what it means to be human?

or to use religion as being a way of life... in following Jesus or
the Buddha as a way of life? not to study or pray to, but in
actually, practicing as a way of life? Is that the path human
existence? or do we practice the modern way of praying to Mammon?
following as a way of life, the baubles of existence.., seeking
titles, money, power, fame and material goods? or perhaps in the
American values of working, producing, consuming?

The Kantian questions of ''what am I to do?''
have you ever questioned, what am I to do?
and honestly tried to come up with an answer?

I doubt few here have even tried to attempt this act of
honesty.. but ask yourself, what am I to do?

Kropotkin

In relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:45 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:39 pm The Kantian questions of ''what am I to do?''
have you ever questioned, what am I to do?
and honestly tried to come up with an answer?

I doubt few here have even tried to attempt this act of
honesty.. but ask yourself, what am I to do?

Kropotkin

How are we to live?
Well, first it's probably a good idea not to start off a topic by insulting the people reading that topic and implicitly declaring superiority to them.
Then it's probably good if one realizes that most people have in fact asked themselves 'what am I to do?' Perhaps they didn't have the resources or skills to really look themselves in a way that would satisfy you, but unless the goal is to alienate your readers, there's probably a better and clearer way to investigate this.

For me the question what am I to do arises in a lot of contexts. Generally where I think there is a problem, with me, with others, with things. As part of what I have done to earn a living, I have taught. I come out of extremely progressive educational approaches. That's where I learned, and that's how I'd prefer to teach: the students are in the center, I am not a copy, I am a resource, I don't fill heads, I help people learn, they have their own motors, their interests guide, we collaborate.

Although this is completely off topic, what you describe here is more or less the definition of 'heuristic' that I use, which, I think, is different from the definition that you use.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:45 am Here's the rub. This works well with many people. But....it can take a long time for some before they understand that they don't have to kiss my ass, I am not their motor, they need to be their own motors, you don't need dominance in education and so on. Different cultures create students with incredibly different expecations of the teacher and student roles.

So, when I deal with a group of students who are from cultures where they cannot at this moment be their own motors unless they are afraid of me, told what to do, and are not used to being driven by their own interests, haven't been allowed to be creative, make up stuff, make mistakes, explore, test ideas, not parrot....

I can do them a disservice if I don't modify my approach. And it's hard. It feel wrong to my bones to do many of the things they are used to teachers doing. But I noticed immediately that those of my peers who did better with the same target group, did include a traditional teacher dominance role. Of course it was vastly milder than what these people experienced in their home countries. But there was enough so that there was less culture shock.

So, how do I deal with them? How much of that tradition role do I take on? How much is my motivation to get good results for myself? IOW they can be short term gains in being a traditional teacher, but long term losses. At some point they are going to need to learn how to be their own motors. Perhaps a 'failure' in my class will be the first step in realizing that it is a good thing to not be controlled. To take over their own learning. And I can certainly inform them of what I see as part of the issue there. Then again, I do this and my students will fail more than they need in the name of long term character changes.

More issues: do I tell them about this issue? That I am deliberately modifying my role to one that I don't, at root, think is the best one, in an ideal world? (I do tend to do this and this has led to some interesting discussions of human nature, how teachers and students should see their roles, how learning takes place, what is knowledge and more).

And then all the issues around how do I get comfortable going against (in a way) my own values in a specific situation? and to some degree my own temperment? Or what to do when my own values clash?

Which can be put another way: How do I change myself so I can do things I'd prefer not to but that I decide are the best option? The core part of that question is how do I change myself?

Not easy. I have slowly over recent terms shifting and it is better as far as I can tell. With other groups, I keep my progressive approach as a totality.

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:42 pm We're to live like most Europeans or like some Europeans.

I could only manage to live like one European, being incarnate in one body.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:42 am

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:42 pm We're to live like most Europeans or like some Europeans.

I could only manage to live like one European, being incarnate in one body.

It's ok to be one of a kind, one of kind though that may be.

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:56 am It's ok to be one of a kind, one of kind though that may be.

It's pleasant to be able to move forward through time affirmed.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:01 am

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:56 am It's ok to be one of a kind, one of kind though that may be.

It's pleasant to be able to move forward through time affirmed.

Some may disagree. Also, is it necessary?