Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 am Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 amWhat bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 am Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality. What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 am What might 1) and 2) say about reality. What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:02 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 am Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality.

2) would suggest that at the decision making level of consciousness, quantum indeterminacy in the least means that determinism has no hand to play in the decision, ergo free will.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 amWhat bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

On outcome 1) I'd say that the more choices in films that there were, the more I'd hedge against there being any form of free will.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:47 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 am Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality. What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

You can draw no conclusions whatsoever.

IF you can have TWO identical worlds; if you can make perfect copies/clones of things then Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; and the No-cloning theorem don't hold.

In what sort of universe does the entity setting up the experiment live in where that is possible? Because it's not the universe we live in.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:49 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:44 am What might 1) and 2) say about reality. What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

It tells us that the only way for the question to have any impact at all is to operate two or more universes for it to play out in.

This should tell us that the question of free will is a matter of description only with nothing at all resting on the outcome. In particular this message should be conveyed to the many persons who appear to think it has religious and moral significance.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:47 pm So you have insufficient imagination to answer the question?
Or does the thought experiment worry you for some reason that you avoid making an answer.

In [1]: films = list(range(1,13)) # Generate a list of 12 elelements representing "a dozen films"
In [2]: from random import choice # Import the random.choice library
In [3]: LorikeetA = choice(films) # Let Lorikeet A choose a film at random
In [4]: LorikeetB = choice(films) # Let Lorikeet B choose a film at random.
 
In [5]: LorikeetA == LorikeetB #Did they choose the same film?
Out[5]: True #Yes! They did!

In [6]: LorikeetA # Lorikeet A chose film 12
Out[6]: 12

In [7]: LorikeetB # Lorikeet B ALSO chose film 12
Out[7]: 12

In [8]: LorikeetA = choice(films)

In [9]: LorikeetB = choice(films)

In [10]: LorikeetA == LorikeetB
Out[10]: False

In [11]: LorikeetA
Out[11]: 1

In [12]: LorikeetB
Out[12]: 12

In [18]: random.seed(3)

In [19]: random.choice(films)
Out[19]: 4

In [20]: random.seed(3)

In [21]: random.choice(films)
Out[21]: 4

In [22]: random.seed(3)

In [23]: random.choice(films)
Out[23]: 4

In [24]: random.seed(7)

In [25]: random.choice(films)
Out[25]: 6

In [26]: random.seed(7)

In [27]: random.choice(films)
Out[27]: 6

In [28]: random.seed(7)

In [29]: random.choice(films)
Out[29]: 6

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:57 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:47 pm So you have insufficient imagination to answer the question?
Or does the thought experiment worry you for some reason that you avoid making an answer.

No, you fucking idiot.

Here is your "experiment" codified in 5 lines of Python

Code: Select all

In [1]: films = list(range(1,13)) # Generate a list of 12 elelements representing "a dozen films"
In [2]: from random import choice # Import the random.choice library
In [3]: LorikeetA = choice(films) # Let Lorikeet A choose a film at random
In [4]: LorikeetB = choice(films) # Let Lorikeet B choose a film at random.
 
In [5]: LorikeetA == LorikeetB #Did they choose the same film?
Out[5]: True #Yes! They did!

In [6]: LorikeetA # Lorikeet A chose film 12
Out[6]: 12

In [7]: LorikeetB # Lorikeet B ALSO chose film 12
Out[7]: 12

WOW! What conclusions can we draw from this? Well, NONE whatsofucking ever. By completely random chance Lorikeet A and Lorikeet B chose the exact same movie.

But if you run the experiment again... who knows what might happen.

Code: Select all

In [8]: LorikeetA = choice(films)

In [9]: LorikeetB = choice(films)

In [10]: LorikeetA == LorikeetB
Out[10]: False

In [11]: LorikeetA
Out[11]: 1

In [12]: LorikeetB
Out[12]: 12

They chose different movies this time.

Does this tell you anything useful? No! Everything you need to know is in the source code of the choice() function! It chooses options at random! BY DESIGN.

Will the choice function make the exact same choice if you seed it (preconfigure it!) with the same "random" number? YES!

In [18]: random.seed(3)

In [19]: random.choice(films)
Out[19]: 4

In [20]: random.seed(3)

In [21]: random.choice(films)
Out[21]: 4

In [22]: random.seed(3)

In [23]: random.choice(films)
Out[23]: 4

Will the choice-function make a diferent choice if you seed it with a different "random" number? YES!

In [24]: random.seed(7)

In [25]: random.choice(films)
Out[25]: 6

In [26]: random.seed(7)

In [27]: random.choice(films)
Out[27]: 6

In [28]: random.seed(7)

In [29]: random.choice(films)
Out[29]: 6

So what does this tell you about Lorikeet? Nothing! No matter how long the streak of Lorikeet A and B making the exact same choice there's always the chance that they will make a different choice next time they go to the movies! You are stuck in the realm of epistemology and inductive reasoning forever!

Either your knowledge is deterministic - meaning it allows you to correctly predict/determine Lorikeet's next choice; or your knowledge is non-deterministic (meaning you can't correctly predict/determine Lorikeet's the next choice).

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:21 pm Completely irrelevant.
You are just too stupid to know what is happening here.
Fuckk off to another Forum moron.

The free will theorem of John H. Conway and Simon B. Kochen states that if we have a free will in the sense that our choices are not a function of the past, then, subject to certain assumptions, so must some elementary particles.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:30 pm My reaction to Dickhead's Python answer in BASIC.

10 REM Skeptic is a Moron.
10 Print " Skeptic is a dickhead"
20 GOTO 10

loop { print "Sculptor is a twat." }

All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

Then those here who actually believe that what they believe about all of this reflects, what, the ontological truth about the human condition itself?

Then those who are compelled in turn to insist on a teleological component as well. Usually in the form of one or another God.

Meanwhile, philosophers and scientists and theologians have been grappling with this profound mystery now for thousands of years.

Either in the only possible reality in the only possible world or of their own volition.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:00 am the real question should be if there are two identical Lorikeets, shouldn't they be a Pairakeets?

-Imp