Philosophy Now Forum

Belief in a god is a personal matter. No one knows anything more than what feels true for them. To preach such a thing to other people as if it is an absolute truth/reality that other people should subscribe to, ends up requiring a great deal of manipulation and dishonesty (whether conscious or not) in forcing a particular pattern.

Where else in life would we allow such unchecked mind control and programming that claims to be crucial for our souls?

Why do we think theism needs to be preached at us? Why not ask each individual what their view of the divine is, if they have such a view, and then learn and be inspired by the commonalities between them? Why is this idea of preaching at people to tell them what to believe considered divine? What is really behind such a thing?

it's all crowd control, god, communist utopia, whatever...

-Imp

It is the mistaken idea that the sum of opinions can make up the Truth.
So we try to convince others because the more we think in the same way, the more this thought is true.

But it's a mistake.

Because this approach can work for objective truths: If so many different points of view agree on something objective it is likely to be true.

But if is God, then we are not dealing with objectivity. But with the overcoming of the original subject-object split.

It is no longer a matter of opinion but of Being!

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm Belief in a god is a personal matter.

Disbelief in God is a personal matter.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm No one knows anything more than what feels true for them.

Everyone can know things, and more so than just what fee ils true for them.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm To preach such a thing to other people as if it is an absolute truth/reality that other people should subscribe to, ends up requiring a great deal of manipulation and dishonesty (whether conscious or not) in forcing a particular pattern.

And the exact same phenomena applies to preaching God does not exist, as well as ALL of the OTHER LIRS and DECEPTIONS that 'you', adults, TEACH/PREACH to children.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm Where else in life would we allow such unchecked mind control and programming that claims to be crucial for our souls?

Just about everywhere else.

'The Universe began and is expanding' BELIEF is unchecked and is just another of the countless others that are a control and programming forced upon children, who, very sadly, grow up with this exact same unchecked BELIEF, which they then force upon " others", including, very unfortunately, further children.

This BELIEF is purported to be crucial for your souls in the way that if you do not follow and accept this belief, then you will be classed as not a well soul, with some sort of diagnosed 'condition'.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm Why do we think theism needs to be preached at us?

Why do you also think ALL of the OTHER False CLAIMS and BELIEFS, like atheism, need to be preached to you as well?

Why not ask each individual what their view of the divine is, if they have such a view, and then learn and be inspired by the commonalities between them?[/quote]

GREAT QUESTION.

WHY do 'you' NOT do this EXACT THING "yourself" "lacewing".

WHY do 'you' PREACH what 'you' do to "others"?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm Why is this idea of preaching at people to tell them what to believe considered divine?

Well considering 'you' do this here "lacewing", and are one the more constant "preachers" here, 'you' are one who is far better qualified to inform us of WHY is your idea of PREACHING considered divine?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm What is really behind such a thing?

Yes REALLY, what IS behind 'you' constantly PREACHING what 'you' do here "lacewing", which 'you' consider 'you' KNOW to be the truth of things?

The answer by the way we have ALREADY discussed and of which I have ALREADY gone through, with 'you', but which, according to 'you', is only what 'you' feel is true alone.

By the way, you NEVER actually explained ANY thing about the so-called 'dishonesty' of preaching 'theism'.
All you have really done here is just express andin a way just, once again, PREACH your very OWN BELIEFS here.

Once more, what you have achieved TO DO here is just DO the VERY 'thing' you ACCUSE "others" of doing while CLAIMING that to do it is the WRONG thing TO DO.

you PREACH 'atheism', based on absolutely NOTHING more than your OWN BELIEFS and ONLY on what you feel true for you.

Which, as some might say and suggest, is about one of the BEST or CLEAREST EXAMPLES of 'The dishonesty of preaching atheism', itself.

When people preach about God to others...
> it suggests that the 'others' are not of God (or the divine) already... that they are separate
> it suggests that the preachers uniquely and truly know God
> it introduces all kinds of manmade distortions
> it ignores the consideration that the divine is represented through all -- which obviously makes the most sense because what else would there be?

Not only is all such preaching dishonest, it's despicable to try to convince people that they are excluded (or will be) from the divine.

It's wrong for any person to insert themselves in such a presuming and authoritative way between god (the divine) and another person, as if the divine is so deficient as to need the interfering creations of man. Such a thing is even worse than stepping between a child and its mother, saying that they are not connected without the interpretation and involvement of a third party. It's absolutely absurd.

The divine (or however one might think about it) does not need people putting on robes and getting in the middle. I think this conclusion would be more obvious if people really think about the unlimited capability and manifestation of the kind of energy that pulses throughout all. It's powerful, efficient, and perfect (even if the creative potential results in some horrors on Earth). We're already and completely part of it. There is nothing else and nowhere to be banished to. It doesn't make sense that it's some big story. Consciousness exists in the ebb and flow of life.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am When people preach about God to others...
> it suggests that the 'others' are not of God (or the divine) already... that they are separate

When people preach about 'the divine' then does this suggest that the "others" are not of 'the divine' (or God) already, and that they are separate, as well?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am > it suggests that the preachers uniquely and truly know God

Does it suggest that the preachers also uniquely and truly know 'the divine', as well?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am > it introduces all kinds of manmade distortions

Does it also introduce all kinds of manmade distortions, as well?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am > it ignores the consideration that the divine is represented through all

Does it ignore the consideration that 'the divine'/God is represented through all, as well?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am -- which obviously makes the most sense because what else would there be?

Good question?

What else could make more sense because what else would there be other than God withing EVERY thing?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am Not only is all such preaching dishonest, it's despicable to try to convince people that they are excluded (or will be) from the divine.

And here we can SEE, ONCE AGAIN, VERY CLEARLY EXACTLY HOW this one was VERY ABUSED as a child, which CONTINUES TO AFFECT the way that this one LOOKS AT and SEES 'things' here.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am It's wrong for any person to insert themselves in such a presuming and authoritative way between god (the divine) and another person, as if the divine is so deficient as to need the interfering creations of man.

Is it wrong to PREACH about the dishonesty of PREACHING about theism and NOT dishonest PREACHING about atheism?

Or, is it wrong for any person to PREACH about PREACHING theism being dishonest, which, itself, is inserting "them" 'self' in such a presuming and authoritative way between 'the divine' (God) and another person, as if God is so deficient as to need the interfering creations of man?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am Such a thing is even worse than stepping between a child and its mother, saying that they are not connected without the interpretation and involvement of a third party. It's absolutely absurd.

True, So WHY oh WHY do 'you', "yourself", continually do this VERY EXACT SAME 'thing' "lacewing"?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am The divine (or however one might think about it) does not need people putting on robes and getting in the middle.

'It' also does NOT need ones like "lacewing" spreading 'its' OWN created imaginations and getting in the middle EITHER.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am I think this conclusion would be more obvious if people really think about the unlimited capability and manifestation of the kind of energy that pulses throughout all. It's powerful, efficient, and perfect (even if the creative potential results in some horrors on Earth). We're already and completely part of it. There is nothing else and nowhere to be banished to. It doesn't make sense that it's some big story.

So, WHY KEEP SPREADING 'your' OWN OBVIOUSLY VERY NARROWED and LIMITED human MADE UP STORIES here "lacewing"?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:56 am Consciousness exists in the ebb and flow of life.

Life, Itself, IS ACTUAL Conscious of It's OWN SelfAnd this is HOW I came to KNOW WHO and WHAT 'I' AM, EXACTLY?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:06 pm Belief in a god is a personal matter.

I have a suspicion that nobody really believes in God. I'm sure lots of people think they do, but at a deeper level of their psyche they know it's a fiction.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:37 pmI have a suspicion that nobody really believes in God. I'm sure lots of people think they do, but at a deeper level of their psyche they know it's a fiction.

Just the opposite: everyone knows, in his bones, God is. Some folks just work damn hard to deny that knowledge (Lord knows: I did).

In the end, the most honest position a human being can take with respect to metaphysical or transcendental matters is agnosticism. Anything else is unfounded speculation (aka dishonesty).

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:17 pm In the end, the most honest position a human being can take with respect to metaphysical or transcendental matters is agnosticism. Anything else is unfounded speculation (aka dishonesty).

unfounded speculation

Doesn't seem to me my speculations are unfounded.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:15 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:37 pmI have a suspicion that nobody really believes in God. I'm sure lots of people think they do, but at a deeper level of their psyche they know it's a fiction.

Just the opposite: everyone knows, in his bones, God is. Some folks just work damn hard to deny that knowledge (Lord knows: I did).

I don't think so, but it's possible, I suppose.

God is what survives the evidence that nothing deserves to be thought.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:31 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:17 pm In the end, the most honest position a human being can take with respect to metaphysical or transcendental matters is agnosticism. Anything else is unfounded speculation (aka dishonesty).

unfounded speculation

Doesn't seem to me my speculations are unfounded.

I don't know. A lot of people seem to disagree with your speculations. That sounds like good cause to question their foundedness to me.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:15 pm Just the opposite: everyone knows, in his bones, God is.

God is, even if He isn't.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:06 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:15 pm Just the opposite: everyone knows, in his bones, God is.

God is, even if He isn't.

But is God the same as unicorns are?