Philosophy Now Forum

Ciao tutti !

I will be travelling to Rome in May and fully expect to see 'Goethe war qui ' graffiti all over the place.

I find it most strange how I find myself embroiled in the life of a philosopher : the route taken half-forgotten in the delight of discovery. Was it our very own BB who did sow the seed.....not sure....

Anyway, in my quest to 'plan' the 'Things I must See in Rome' (related to philo/art/piazzas e pizzas) - me old friend Marcus Aurelius and Goethe both jumped out of the internet pages.

I have always thought of Goethe as being beyond me - not my type if you like. Now where would I get that idea from ?
Imagine my surprise when he spoke to me.

Today, I received ' Italian Journey' - the Intro, by WH Auden and Elizabeth Mayer, an enticing antipasto....
So now to follow in G's footsteps....sorta...

Anyone already been there, done that, got the hat ?

M.

Introduction tit-bits
p 8 ... some of the best passages in the book....( apparently )

he is arrested as an Austrian spy ( whilst sketching a ruined fort )
Vesuvius erupts ( ooh er...)
nearly gets shipwrecked on Capri ( me too ! )
meets eccentric and comic types ( Neapolitan princess with outrageous tongue ??? )
chance remarks leading to meeting with famous international swindler

Goethe's descriptions of these reveal a comic gift....and his readiness to laugh at himself...

p9-10... the value of his descriptions is not in 'word-painting'....but his passion for historical development...why things have come to be as they are...Goethe refuses to separate the beautiful from the necessary.
Hmmm, he apparently is convinced that you can't appreciate the beauty of anything without understanding what made it possible....how it came to be....( hmmmm, ponders on.... )

p11... Italian journey is not only a description...but a psychological document....dealing with a mid-life crisis....hmmm...
{ Oh, spooky....3's and 9's...if it is correct that at 3 in the morning on 3rd September he jumped on a coach with no servant and hardly any luggage...

Ah, Ryanair....
M.

Hi M,

How fortunate you are to be able to travel! I loved Rome! I am wearing my I heart Jesus shirt in your honor. As Lewis Black says, "I didn't know this, but Jesus Christ? He's big there. Everywhere you turn, there's Jesus, there's Jesus, there's Jesus – He's like the Coca-Cola of Italy. I'm Jewish, and after three weeks I started to think he might be the real thing."

LOL Seriously though...I could not have a moments peace in my own mind in that city. It was intensely humbling and I found it impossible to walk down the street without feeling the essence of all who had come before me. The air was disturbingly thick with history. You could feel it....it was exhilarating and exhausting all at the same time. It definitely changed me as a person.

Oddly enough, with my mind reeling from all the fantastic art (St. Peter's Basilica topping the chart with it's impossible mosaic paintings...mind boggling!) I caught my breath for a brief moment of complete solitude and isolation even in the midst of my fellow sightseers, in this double spiral staircase at the Vatican....incredibly simple and beautiful! I could have played on that all day! It was the same feeling as being a kids and rolling down a hill of grass...remember how fun that was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vatic ... ircase.jpg

Oh....and all the rest of Rome was incredible too...even the graffiti! LOL Lucky lucky you!

Hi AS

AS: How fortunate you are to be able to travel! I loved Rome!

M: You have no idea how chuffed I am !! This will be my first venture abroad for 15 years. My last trip to Rome was in 1980.

AS: I am wearing my I heart Jesus shirt in your honor. As Lewis Black says, "I didn't know this, but Jesus Christ? He's big there. Everywhere you turn, there's Jesus, there's Jesus, there's Jesus – He's like the Coca-Cola of Italy. I'm Jewish, and after three weeks I started to think he might be the real thing."

M: Oh no, please.....not in my name !!

AS: LOL Seriously though...I could not have a moments peace in my own mind in that city. It was intensely humbling and I found it impossible to walk down the street without feeling the essence of all who had come before me. The air was disturbingly thick with history. You could feel it....it was exhilarating and exhausting all at the same time. It definitely changed me as a person.

M: Hmmm....not my experience last time round - it was chaotic, for pedestrians green does not mean go, and it was a 'tour'. It felt tacky and dirty. This time will be different. I shall take my time, do what I want. Can't wait to read what Goethe has to say. However, only at the Verona to Venice stage of his journey.

AS: Oddly enough, with my mind reeling from all the fantastic art (St. Peter's Basilica topping the chart with it's impossible mosaic paintings...mind boggling!) I caught my breath for a brief moment of complete solitude and isolation even in the midst of my fellow sightseers, in this double spiral staircase at the Vatican....incredibly simple and beautiful! I could have played on that all day! It was the same feeling as being a kids and rolling down a hill of grass...remember how fun that was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vatic ... ircase.jpg

M: Yes, the staircase is beautiful but a youtube rendition of the echoing,clattering, chattering tourists left me cold.

AS : Oh....and all the rest of Rome was incredible too...even the graffiti! LOL Lucky lucky you!

M: When were you there AS ?

I left Goethe in Vicenza, on the 22nd September, 1786, following a Meeting at the Academy of Olympians ( the motion was ' Which has been of greater benefit to the Arts - Invention or Imitation ?' ), he wished that he too could entertain his countrymen in this manner ( enthusiastic clapping and laughter ) instead of having to '...confine one's best thoughts to the printed page of some book at which a solitary reader, hunched up in a corner, then nibbles as best he can...' pp67-8.

{ I guess he would be a big fan of Twitter ?? or would he...I am going to have to look up his frequent reference to 'Birds'. Or can anyone enlighten me ? }

There is a wonderful para which summarizes the debate....where Palladio's name keeps cropping up...and Goethe's views of the 'common herd'.
This is the most fascinating book. There is just too much to take in and tell of.

M.

Saget, Steine, mir an, o sprecht, ihr hohen Paläste!
Straßen, redet ein Wort! Genius, regst du dich nicht?
Ja, es ist alles beseelt in deinen heiligen Mauern,
Ewige Roma; nur mir schweiget noch alles so still.
O wer flüstert mir zu, an welchem Fenster erblick' ich
Einst das holde Geschöpf, das mich versengend erquickt?
Ahn' ich die Wege noch nicht, durch die ich immer und immer,
Zu ihr und von ihr zu geh'n, opfre die köstliche Zeit?
Noch betracht' ich Kirch' und Palast, Ruinen und Säulen,
Wie ein bedächtiger Mann schicklich die Reise benutzt.
Doch bald ist es vorbei; dann wird ein einziger Tempel,
Amors Tempel, nur sein, der den Geweihten empfängt.
Eine Welt zwar bist du, o Rom; doch ohne die Liebe
Wäre die Welt nicht die Welt, wäre denn Rom auch nicht Rom.

(Goethe, Die Römischen Elegien, I)

mhoraine wrote: M: When were you there AS ?

I left Goethe in Vicenza, on the 22nd September, 1786, following a Meeting at the Academy of Olympians ( the motion was ' Which has been of greater benefit to the Arts - Invention or Imitation ?' ), he wished that he too could entertain his countrymen in this manner ( enthusiastic clapping and laughter ) instead of having to '...confine one's best thoughts to the printed page of some book at which a solitary reader, hunched up in a corner, then nibbles as best he can...' pp67-8.

{ I guess he would be a big fan of Twitter ?? or would he...I am going to have to look up his frequent reference to 'Birds'. Or can anyone enlighten me ? }

There is a wonderful para which summarizes the debate....where Palladio's name keeps cropping up...and Goethe's views of the 'common herd'.
This is the most fascinating book. There is just too much to take in and tell of.

M.

Hi M,

I don't remember the year. I know I had a small cell phone so I think that should narrow it down a little, must have been relatively recent. Sorry, I have no mind for such details. I even have to ask hubby how old I am occasionally! He kids with me that he "will never have a past with me." But I suspect he is right.

I simply love when you talk about the books you are currently enjoying. I feel as if I learn more about what is important about them then if I had read them myself. You have a beautiful way of expressing your thoughts and feelings. I googled Richard's quote...and translated it...is that a reference to what you were saying above? Please take pity on the slow kid and enlighten me....lol.

Hi

AS: I simply love when you talk about the books you are currently enjoying. I feel as if I learn more about what is important about them then if I had read them myself. You have a beautiful way of expressing your thoughts and feelings. I googled Richard's quote...and translated it...is that a reference to what you were saying above? Please take pity on the slow kid and enlighten me....lol.

M: Thanks for the kind comments : it's not often that I get excited by a philosopher and want to talk about him to death.
However, if you are interested in Goethe ( ?) and what is important about him , then I would not go on my ramblings !!
I'm looking at him from my perspective - you and others would probably pick up on something different, and I would learn from that. That is what I enjoyed about our previous natters about eg dear Marcus - now you do remember him !!!?

As for the 'slow kid' business - yeah right !! Re Richard's post and its reference to the above, you'd probably best ask him.
I have my own take on it - without love, Rome is not Rome. You may have felt the alive spirit of Rome because you were 'in love' at the time ? but for me in 1980 ( having left my love behind ), all was still.
But maybe personal love is not what is important to enjoy Rome, but some kind of appreciation of the moment, and the past...

From Goethe's point of view - Oh, don't you feel for his ' like a serious man making sensible use of a journey',,,and all the time he is looking for love ?

I guess he got lucky in that respect - when I looked at the 'next' poem ( ? chronological ), I found the ' Royal Prayer' where he exclaims '... I am the Lord of the Earth....O grant me God in Heaven that I may ne'er dispense with loftiness and love...'

M.

Ciao e grazie Richard

I loved the poem, and it sounds viel besser in Deutsch.
Now, you must really respond to AS and her question !!

A dopo
M.

Hello AS,

Is the poem a reference to what Mhoraine was saying? That is a question peculiarly difficult to answer. I would need to read her mind to know what she had in mind, and she would have to read mine to know what motivated me to place the poem there. In matters factual, for example when one person writes "AUC" and another adds "753", it is easy to say that one thing refers to another. But when the subject matter is as ethereal as a spirit of place, I fear that mutual mind-reading is required. I was inspired to place the poem there by what Mhoraine had written, but could not make the connection any more precise than that.

Hello Mhoraine,

Love, maybe. But lust, certainly. Goethe wrote some poems that are right up there with Catullus. One of them is about a young lady who gets so supple that her tongue can meet her lips.

Hi Richard,

R: But when the subject matter is as ethereal as a spirit of place, I fear that mutual mind-reading is required. I was inspired to place the poem there by what Mhoraine had written, but could not make the connection any more precise than that.

AS: Yes you could. You could tell us what exactly inspired you. Was it a memory? Was it Mhoraine's beautiful language? Was it a physical or spiritual experience? etc. These are all things you could do to allow true communication to take place. Now, don't get me wrong....sometimes mind reading can be great. It sometimes makes you believe things that may not be there and can give you great insight into yourself. It's great to have privacy. Still, it has been my experience, when I opened up about what makes me inspired to paint...perhaps a shadow of light...an odd color...a negative shape and I will point it out to someone in such an excited way...that they shouldn't miss it! There is no doubt they understand when I show them....I can see the light bulb come on. I know they understand. That is great intimacy. Maybe it is reading minds...but it certainly isn't a one sided reading of mind. It's two (or more) minds agreeing to read each other. That agreement is what I seek from people, I guess.

R: One of them is about a young lady who gets so supple that her tongue can meet her lips.

AS: Have to be cheeky again and ask, 'which lips'? These are the times when knowing a person's personality comes in handy when interpreting their words. Sometimes just reading isn't enough to get the whole essence of a person. Why do I always want so much more? When I read fear and trembling I was so bowled over by the 'in your face' personality and thoughts of the author I don't ever think I will shake the intimacy. However, other writers tease you into thinking they are going to give some , take you almost to the brink of...and then snatch it away. I hate that! Book tease!

Hi M. (You are last but certainly not least...I just needed to respond to Richard first in order that my response to you makes sense...lol)

M: Thanks for the kind comments : it's not often that I get excited by a philosopher and want to talk about him to death.
However, if you are interested in Goethe ( ?) and what is important about him , then I would not go on my ramblings !!
I'm looking at him from my perspective - you and others would probably pick up on something different, and I would learn from that. That is what I enjoyed about our previous natters about eg dear Marcus - now you do remember him !!!?

AS: Yes, M...I remember. But I am not interested in Goethe...at least not yet. I am interested in what you think is important about him and what Richard thinks is important about your words about him. If I ever get around to reading him I will have different thoughts, I am sure. But when you tell me what made him beautiful to you, I get to enjoy your enjoyment and know a little about who you are and why you feel the way you do. It's a little snapshot into your soul. And before you say you don't want anyone to look in your soul....think about why you like to read. Isn't it to peer into another's soul if only for a moment? Privacy schmivacy! Show me whacha got, girlfriend! I promise to show you mine if you show me yours.

M:I have my own take on it - without love, Rome is not Rome. You may have felt the alive spirit of Rome because you were 'in love' at the time ? but for me in 1980 ( having left my love behind ), all was still.

AS: I guess I was 'in love' at the time. I am kinda chuckling to myself because I don't view love in that way. I think the love I give is based on what my lover needs it to be. My husband required very little from me to keep him happy. So we don't often walk together hand in hand or look longingly into one anothers eyes. I suppose if I was in love with a man who liked all that...i would like it to...because I would want to please him of course. But with my husband there is just a genuine love to enjoy one another leisurely....in every way possible. When I need something from him...it is understood that I will take it....lol. I don't ever feel as if I am undeserving of it or it is off limits to me. When he needs something from me it is the same...it's like an unwritten agreement. So when you say love...it is hard for me. Certainly no romantic fairy tale love that I have imagined...lol....better.

Sorry to be long winded....getting back to Rome and love. Isn't it enough to love a city as if it were a person? I find it easy to have many lovers this way. Plus I am never in between lovers, there is an abundance!

Hi AS

AS : These are the times when knowing a person's personality comes in handy when interpreting their words. Sometimes just reading isn't enough to get the whole essence of a person. Why do I always want so much more? When I read fear and trembling I was so bowled over by the 'in your face' personality and thoughts of the author I don't ever think I will shake the intimacy.

M: just a quickie to keep you going. I really don't think you need to know about R's personality to read his 'lips' - it is all too clear what is meant in this respect.

I agree that reading what a person says, and how they express their thoughts, will not give you the complete picture of their 'essence' (whatever that is ? ) but it's a start. Like you, I enjoy getting to know the author/philosopher and feel the need to understand their background and motivation. I have so many ???????'s about Goethe....

Now, about 'fear and trembling' - and being bowled over - I can't remember reading about your 'intimate' experience.
I take it that it was good for you ?

Best
M.

artisticsolution wrote:You could tell us what exactly inspired you.

The occasion was a chance encounter with the great man on a bookshelf. The aptness just seemed obvious. One needs a personal relationship with a city to make the journey worthwhile. Goethe draws our attention to the fact that it is a little mysterious, but not wholly so, how one can have a personal relationship with old stones.

As to mind-reading, Goethe knew better than most how to read minds, bodies and their follies.

artisticsolution wrote:Which lips?

Gibbon , in his Memoirs of my Life and Writings, said, "My English text is chaste, and all licentious passages are left in the obscurity of a learned language". (He explicitly applied this policy when relating the exploits of Theodora, wife of Justinian: Decline and Fall, volume 4, chapter 40.) He did not have German in mind, but let us take it that he did:

Was ich am meisten besorge: Bettina wird immer geschickter,
Immer beweglicher wird jegliches Gliedchen an ihr;
Endlich bringt sie das Züngelchen noch ins zierliche Fötzchen,
Spielt mit dem artigen Selbst, achtet die Männer nicht viel.

(Venetianische Epigramme, number 57 in some editions, 137 in others)

Hi M and R,

Gawd how I hate to be the slow one! You make me work so hard to get the least little morsel of wisdom! I feel like I am a clumsy puppy eagerly tearing apart one of it's chew toys only to stop suddenly with a cocked head when a curious thought distracts me from my shallow but playful fun!

I fear I will never catch on! The second I triumphantly bring back the bone you've thrown, you go and throw it again!

M, your post had me in stitches...yes, it was good for me. lol I have written and talked about the experience of fear and trembling many times, here and in real life. The only problem is, I don't know how to begin to talk about it without some sort of intimacy or feedback from another person. Rort started a thread and I wrote a little in there but it must have bored him because after a while I found I was all alone in the thread...so I just went back to chewing my playthings. Bad habits are hard to break.

R, I have got work to do with your post, haven't I? First I have to translate it and make sure it is the correct passage by comparing certain words I can understand and the way they are laid out. Then I have the difficult task of trying to figure out what the poetry is trying to say and how much is lost in translation. Then I have to figure out what you are trying to relate to me with that particular quote! Do you understand how many hours, days, years that takes me?! I am still trying to figure out Kierkegaard! It's frustrating knowing I don't know what I don't know. Some help?

artisticsolution wrote:Some help?

OK, here is my instant verse translation, just for you. It is very free, but it was either that or plodding prose.

Bettina, I fret, will more skilful get
A twist and a turn, of limbs. How I burn.
And then will her tongue in sweet pussy come.
Self-play without peer. No men needed here.

Thanks Richard! Goethe is so nassy! lol I like your translation much better...here is what I came up with from google:

What I am most afraid: Bettina is getting cleverer
More and more mobile every members will to her:
Finally she brings Zungelchen yet graceful <fotzchen>
Even playing with the style, does not respect the men much.

1.Sorry I don't have an umlaut key.
2. Please help with the translation on the words zungelchen and fotzchen because I couldn't find a direct translation.
3.Your version is more sexy than "does not respect men much."
4. Is Goethe talking about Rome or an actual woman? Did Goethe mean to imply she/Rome doesn't like men, doesn't need a man, or something else? Is she/Rome emotionally distant or delightfully self assured? Does he find this appealing the way you would experience a thing like a city or is it more like deep sexual desire for another?

Do you see how hard it is for me to understand? And these are just a few of my questions for this one tiny little passage! I find it completely terrifying to find out how much I don't know...because death will come sooner than wisdom and understanding! And to think I was born to a country who has no such experience with ancient cities. Almost every structure in the USA is new! There just isn't the same feeling in the air as there is in Europe. I wonder to myself if the people on the other side of the pond are able to understand that about Americans. When we experience what you see everyday of your lives...history upon history. Our puny little brains go on overload. It is too much to take in. I think that is why sometimes we seem so stupid compared to you. I listen to the way Goethe speaks of love and lust and I wonder how much I have been missing. I don't think I have come across a man like him in my lifetime in America. Can they exist without the language to relate their thoughts? Maybe the clever ones.

Side note on knowing personalities...I find it odd that in my lifetime I have been viewed as a devil more than once by all sorts of people I have encountered along the way. Seriously, a ton people actually tell me in their dreams, I came to life as the devil! People who I don't even know that well have told me this. Just now my youngest son came into my room and was cracking up...I asked him why he was laughing. He said, "because my girlfriend (who has never met me) just told me she had a dream about you and you looked just like the witch from snow white!"

This coming from the kid who when watching my mom and me have a discussion at a restaurant about whether or not taking one little packet of jelly home could be construed as stealing, had a delightful solution to our dilemma. The dialogue when like this:

AS's Mom: I can't take that packet of jelly home...it would be stealing.

AS: Oh mom, it's no biggie....you paid for your meal....jelly is part of the price. Just take the jelly to go!

AS's Mom: But it's Sunday. God will know I stole. I'm not taking the jelly.

AS's son (puts his hand up to stop the bickering and offers a helpful solution...looks at AS's mom...): Wait a sec Grandma...I know what to do...(turns to AS and hands her the jelly) Here mom...you take it! You're going to hell anyway!

(Grandma and mom laugh hysterically causing son much embarrassment.)

The End.