Philosophy Now Forum

if we were to think about our current society, state and culture...
we might be able to rewrite that in historical church history...
think of the Catholic church during the Middle Ages.. it was the only game in
town... and it was in everyone's life... from Monarch to the lowest peasant,
the church was ever-present...

but think about the path of the church... at first it was concerned with
the soul of man and it wasn't a political or financial institution...
but as the years passed, the Catholic Church in the hands of man, became
soiled and corrupt... as the centuries passed, the Catholic church was no
longer about the saving of man and it became about money and power...
it was corrupt and vain and only eyes had on how much money it could
take from the peasants..... it had not other reality...

Now think of the institution of Democracy.. and we can follow Democracy
into following the same dark path that the Church followed...
from it being relatively honest to becoming increasingly corrupt
and dishonest... and by the time of Martin Luther.. it was clear that
the church, the Catholic Church had sold its soul for money and power...

and look at modern government like America's democracy and English
monarchy, it has sold its soul for money and power...
Politicians are quick to sell out their constituents for a dime or two...
The politicians no longer even pretend to stand for their constituents...
the politicians have sold out America for a cheap price... and in doing so,
they have followed the path of the Catholic church... and now it's time,
for a new Martin Luther to call for a new church.....a new democracy..
one that actually is about the people... for the people, by the people
and of the people... a slogan long lost in America today....
for we now have a corporatocracy and that is our new political master...
for our democracy has long since passed away...

but it is not enough to demand the end of the modern corporatocracy,
we must have to know/plan what comes next....

and I say, we must return to a real democracy, not a sham representative
democracy because it won't take much for the representatives to sell out their
constituents... about a million dollars ought to do the trick...but this is because
the goal, the telos we have today is about money, power, titles, fame....
the baubles of existence... that have no value because they can only bring about
what they are... so seeking wealth can only bring about wealth and seeking fame,
can only bring about fame, and seeking titles can only result in titles..
nothing more..... we don't have a goal, meaning, purpose... a telos that
is something worth pursuing.... seeking empty baubles only leads to
empty baubles.... but what will bring about real change in America today?

Seeking out values and goals that aren't empty and vain.. to seek out love,
peace, hope.... to seek out values that are positive... as love and peace
and hope are positive values.. in other words, seeking out love brings back
something greater than love and seeking out peace brings back something
greater than peace... and that is the values we should be seeking...
values that lead us to a greater goal or purpose than itself.....
like seeking money or fame does...

is greater democracy the only solution to our current crisis?
no, but it is an excellent solution to our current crisis...

Do you want to understand our current political problems, see
the past and how the Catholic Church was challenged and attacked
from about 1400 to 1900 when the church lost the battle.....

History repeats itself in terms of the rise and fall of an institution...and we
are following that institutional rise and fall of a political institution in democracy....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm if we were to think about our current society, state and culture...
we might be able to rewrite that in historical church history...
think of the Catholic church during the Middle Ages.. it was the only game in
town... and it was in everyone's life... from Monarch to the lowest peasant,
the church was ever-present...

The NARROWEDNESS and SHALLOWEDNESS of the adult human being, back in the days when this was being written, is NEVER surprising. The adult human beings back then REALLY could NOT have had a MORE NARROWED view and perspective of 'things' and thus REALLY could NOT have been MORE CLOSED than they were, and as exampled by this one here.

Although NOT ALL of 'them' thought and viewed 'things' from this SHALLOWED, NARROWED, nor CLOSED a view point, but a LOT DID.

AND, the PROOF that these individuals were SO ABSOLUTELY CLOSED is that they were NOT even OPEN AT ALL to just be inquisitive to find out what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that I was ACCUSING them of being SO NARROWED and CLOSED ABOUT.

Why were SO CLOSED human beings, back in those days, that they ACTUALLY BELIEVED, ABSOLUTELY, that they were NOT CLOSED AT ALL, but their INACTION PROVED absolutely what thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth IS, EXACTLY.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm but think about the path of the church... at first it was concerned with
the soul of man and it wasn't a political or financial institution...
but as the years passed, the Catholic Church in the hands of man, became
soiled and corrupt... as the centuries passed, the Catholic church was no
longer about the saving of man and it became about money and power...
it was corrupt and vain and only eyes had on how much money it could
take from the peasants..... it had not other reality...

Which sounds EXACTLY LIKE the adult human being, in the days when this was being written.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm Now think of the institution of Democracy.. and we can follow Democracy
into following the same dark path that the Church followed...
from it being relatively honest to becoming increasingly corrupt
and dishonest... and by the time of Martin Luther.. it was clear that
the church, the Catholic Church had sold its soul for money and power...

But 'churches', themselves, do absolutely NOTHING but just 'stand there', as physically made bodies, 'surrounding or protecting the people', as some might say.

What the 'people' WITHIN 'churches/physical bodies' think, say, and/or do, is a whole OTHER matter though.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm and look at modern government like America's democracy and English
monarchy, it has sold its soul for money and power...

And, WHEN was it EXACTLY that 'governments' and 'monarchies' were NOT about money and power?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm Politicians are quick to sell out their constituents for a dime or two...
The politicians no longer even pretend to stand for their constituents...
the politicians have sold out America for a cheap price... and in doing so,
they have followed the path of the Catholic church... and now it's time,
for a new Martin Luther to call for a new church.....a new democracy..
one that actually is about the people... for the people, by the people
and of the people... a slogan long lost in America today....
for we now have a corporatocracy and that is our new political master...
for our democracy has long since passed away...

but it is not enough to demand the end of the modern corporatocracy,
we must have to know/plan what comes next....

WHY do 'you', the adult human being, NOT LOOK AT just HOW greedy, selfish, and CORRUPT 'you' REALLY ARE, and at just HOW MUCH 'you' have 'SOLD OUT'?

And, WHY do 'you' NOT do this INSTEAD of LOOKING FOR and SEEING the 'SELL OUT' IN "others", as though 'you' have NEVER done the EXACT SAME 'thing/s'?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm and I say, we must return to a real democracy, not a sham representative
democracy because it won't take much for the representatives to sell out their
constituents... about a million dollars ought to do the trick...

LOL The CAUSE of the Wrong is the LOVE OF MONEY, so this one's "solution" is to BRING IN MORE MONEY.

'you', adult human beings, REALLY were, back then, about as STUPID as one could get.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm but this is because
the goal, the telos we have today is about money, power, titles, fame....
the baubles of existence... that have no value because they can only bring about
what they are... so seeking wealth can only bring about wealth and seeking fame,
can only bring about fame, and seeking titles can only result in titles..
nothing more..... we don't have a goal, meaning, purpose... a telos that
is something worth pursuing.... seeking empty baubles only leads to
empty baubles.... but what will bring about real change in America today?

What you said and wrote here was ALL VERY GOOD, that was until your LAST SENTENCE.

ANOTHER REASON WHY the COLLAPSE OF SOCIETY is BECAUSE 'you', adult human beings, BREAK and SEPARATE HUMAN SOCIETY, or HUMANITY, into SMALL and TINY 'groups' and then only LOOK FOR what is, supposedly, "good and right" for that VERY SMALL and TINY 'group'. EXACTLY LIKE and EXACTLY AS you have done just here with that last sentence of YOURS here.

Going on a world wide internet forum and talking about CHANGE only for a VERY MINUTE and TINY 'part of the whole' is just PROOF of just how GREEDY, SHALLOW, and NARROWED the adult human being REALLY WAS, back in those OLDEN DAYS.

Also, one TELLING "others" what we MUST DO, from that one's TINY LITTLE VIEW of 'things' REVEALS just HOW SMALL their views REALLY WERE, and HOW MUCH significance they placed in their INDIVIDUAL 'selves'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm Seeking out values and goals that aren't empty and vain.. to seek out love,
peace, hope.... to seek out values that are positive... as love and peace
and hope are positive values.. in other words, seeking out love brings back
something greater than love and seeking out peace brings back something
greater than peace... and that is the values we should be seeking...
values that lead us to a greater goal or purpose than itself.....
like seeking money or fame does...

BUT 'seeking out' those NATURALLY Good and Right 'things' while HOLDING views that led 'you' to BEING GREEDY and SELFISH in the first place is NEVER going to ALLOW 'you' to FIND the Good and Right 'things' in Life. The Wrong and Bad views, which 'you' OBVIOUSLY have here only lead 'you' to FURTHER of what CAUSED 'you' to be living in such the Wrong and MESSED UP 'world' that 'you' were living IN, back then.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm is greater democracy the only solution to our current crisis?
no, but it is an excellent solution to our current crisis...

LOL So, to you, what CAUSED the 'current crisis' is ALSO an 'excellent solution'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm Do you want to understand our current political problems, see
the past and how the Catholic Church was challenged and attacked
from about 1400 to 1900 when the church lost the battle.....

History repeats itself in terms of the rise and fall of an institution...and we
are following that institutional rise and fall of a political institution in democracy....

Kropotkin

Thee ACTUAL and ONLY 'solution' that I KNOW of anyway, is VERY DIFFERENT to what you have been SAYING and PROPOSING here.

AND if ANY one is Truly INTERESTED, then lets us DISCUSS.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:02 pm and look at modern government like America's democracy and English
monarchy,

I think you must mean the British monarchy, and you also seem to be under the impression that it plays a part in government.