Philosophy Now Forum

Another "dead white guy" named Aristotle came up
with, as far as we know, with this idea of Telos.. which is defined
by my handy dandy dictionary as:

Telos: The Greek term telos refers to what we might call
"a purpose, goal, end or true final function of an object"
including us human beings...

for a thousand years, human telos was defined by
the bible and the attempt to get to heaven....

and after the great revolutions of the last 500 years,
the scientific, social, political, economic, industrial and philosophical
revolutions, human beings no longer could have faith in the
previous telos.... of god and seeking heaven...

the entire history of the 500 years has been to seek out a new
telos that will fit us in our modern age...

from nationalism to the rise of the new faiths and ism's...
science, the Enlightenment, the Romantic Era, the various
isms/schools of the ARTS... from Cubism to Surrealism and Impressionism
to Pop Art to Art Nouveau..... all stem from an attempt
to seek out a new telos for the modern age...

to including our modern attempts to create a new telos within
Fascism and dictatorships like Hitler and wannbe dictators like
IQ45 to Marxism and socialism and pretend democracies
like the U.S and we find an attempt at telos with the
modern versions of racism, sexism, ageism, the hatred
and fanaticism of the right/conservative....

the question is not to seek out a new telos out of the
old bottle of wine but to seek out a new telos in our
new world, in our new modern environment that embraces our
modern world of science and technology and computers and
space travel and the already here transhumanism.... a telos
that finds itself in our modern technologies and includes
such things a modern medicine and the technologies of
tomorrow...

as our environment changes, we must change to meet the
challenges that are coming, whether or not we are ready for
them...if we fail to change who we are and what our goals/purpose
is to meet the new world, we may as well change our collective
name to "Dinosaurs"

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:44 pm Another "dead white guy" named Aristotle came up
with, as far as we know, with this idea of Telos.. which is defined
by my handy dandy dictionary as:

Telos: The Greek term telos refers to what we might call
"a purpose, goal, end or true final function of an object"
including us human beings...

for a thousand years, human telos was defined by
the bible and the attempt to get to heaven....

and after the great revolutions of the last 500 years,
the scientific, social, political, economic, industrial and philosophical
revolutions, human beings no longer could have faith in the
previous telos.... of god and seeking heaven...

WHY NOT?

Is the mere miserable and miniscule length of just 500 years all you need to "find" PROOF of what you claim here?

bobmax wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:51 am the entire history of the 500 years has been to seek out a new
telos that will fit us in our modern age...

LOL the one in the bible STILL fits in PERFECTLY, with what you would consider 'present times'.

bobmax wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:51 am from nationalism to the rise of the new faiths and ism's...
science, the Enlightenment, the Romantic Era, the various
isms/schools of the ARTS... from Cubism to Surrealism and Impressionism
to Pop Art to Art Nouveau..... all stem from an attempt
to seek out a new telos for the modern age...

With NO such luck.

And, if you call the days when this is being written 'the modern age', then here is just MORE PROOF of just how NARROWED and SHALLOW the views REALLY were, back in the OLDEN DAYS when this was being written.

bobmax wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:51 am to including our modern attempts to create a new telos within
Fascism and dictatorships like Hitler and wannbe dictators like
IQ45 to Marxism and socialism and pretend democracies
like the U.S and we find an attempt at telos with the
modern versions of racism, sexism, ageism, the hatred
and fanaticism of the right/conservative....

the question is not to seek out a new telos out of the
old bottle of wine but to seek out a new telos in our
new world, in our new modern environment that embraces our
modern world of science and technology and computers and
space travel and the already here transhumanism.... a telos
that finds itself in our modern technologies and includes
such things a modern medicine and the technologies of
tomorrow...

What you call 'the modern world', in which 'the world' was a very stressful, greedy, war-torn, and pollution-riddled 'world' is about as OLD a 'world' as the 'stone age' 'world' was to you.

'That world' that you live in and call 'modern' is as hilarious to 'us' as if the people living in caves, only, said 'their world' is 'the modern world', to you.

bobmax wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:51 am as our environment changes, we must change to meet the
challenges that are coming, whether or not we are ready for
them...

When you say here, "as our environment changes", what are you referring to, EXACTLY?

bobmax wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:51 am if we fail to change who we are and what our goals/purpose
is to meet the new world, we may as well change our collective
name to "Dinosaurs"

Kropotkin

LOL 'you', human beings, have been CHANGING and EVOLVING since even BEFORE 'you' even came into Existence, Itself.

WHY would you even think that you are, all of a sudden, just now, in 'your' lol 'modern world', going to FAIL 'to change'?

WHY would you even ASSUME that you would STOP changing/evolving?

for a thousand years, human telos was defined by
the bible and the attempt to get to heaven....

Human = European

Most humans did not know or care about the bible.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:44 pm the question is not to seek out a new telos out of the
old bottle of wine but to seek out a new telos in our
new world, in our new modern environment that embraces our
modern world of science and technology and computers and
space travel and the already here transhumanism.... a telos
that finds itself in our modern technologies and includes
such things a modern medicine and the technologies of
tomorrow...

as our environment changes, we must change to meet the
challenges that are coming, whether or not we are ready for
them...if we fail to change who we are and what our goals/purpose
is to meet the new world, we may as well change our collective
name to "Dinosaurs"

Kropotkin

When I read these two paragraphs it sounds like we, that being humans, must change and accept the new telos determined by technology. We must adapt to the telos decided up on by.....whom?

Should the telos come from us and adapt to our desires and needs, ones which hopefully include some care for other life on this world?

Or should the technocrats and corporations decide what the telos is and we then buy it and adapt to their ideas and goals.?

Who are "we" and "us" here?

Liberal Americans?

Are "our desires and needs" all important? What about "their desires and needs"?

Who are "they"?

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:12 pm Who are "we" and "us" here?

Liberal Americans?

Are "our desires and needs" all important? What about "their desires and needs"?

Who are "they"?

I'm not sure if you are asking him or me, but good point. It seems like we is not republicans, given...

fanaticism of the right/conservative....

My 'we' was taken off his 'we', whoever that we is.

I'm not sure if you are asking him or me, but good point. It seems like we is not republicans, given...

I think that asking him does not go anywhere.

The question is for anyone who wants to give a reply.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:38 pmI think that asking him does not go anywhere.

I've noticed that, lol, is generally the case.

The question is for anyone who wants to give a reply.

It sure sounds like he is addressing mostly Westerners, mostly liberals/lefties or any sudden converts from the right.

I think your focus on the 'we' was a good one. Because he partly seems to be addressing everyone. But then also not everyone in other places. And you also pointed out his Euroamerican centrism.

I think the OP is fairly confusing.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:38 pm

for a thousand years, human telos was defined by
the bible and the attempt to get to heaven....

Human = European

Most humans did not know or care about the bible.

K: and is part of my point... that we are born into a state, culture,
society wherein the "telos" that we believe in, has been indoctrinated
into us... I am an American, male, born in a certain time and place
and the state/culture/ society that I lived in has indoctrinated me
with a certain idea of "telos"... I have been as you have been
as has everyone been indoctrinated with the "telos" of that
society, state, culture.. we can call that "telos" the myths,
habits, superstitions, bias, prejudice of the state, society,
culture we were born in... the indoctrinations of our childhood...
the "telos" of human being, the purpose, goal, point of existence
is nothing more than an indoctrination of our childhood...
my childhood is western European in nature, as is most of
America and so, we have simple carried on the indoctrinations
of Western Europe.. and indoctrinations is just another word
for the myths, habits, superstitions, bias and prejudice inherited
from most of our collective background of our family heritage
coming from Europe...( the majority of Americans background is
from Europe)

And what of those who come from places other than western Europe?
they have a different set of indoctrinations, myths, superstitions,
habits, bias and prejudice based on their own cultural indoctrinations....
I live in California, and I regularly deal with Asian cultures, and their
biases, habits, myths, superstitions are very different than mine...
it isn't better or worse, just different... and that is because
their indoctrinations are different than mine were...
which means their idea of "telos" is different than mine...

and because of our vastly different backgrounds, we have
very different "telos'' which is to say, very different indoctrinations
of myths, bias, prejudice, superstitions, and habits from our childhood...
and those indoctrinations very upon race, creed, color, sexual orientation,
nationality, and even perhaps on one's disability....

and the final point is that we, for various reasons, fail to overcome
our childhood indoctrinations.... we simply accept our childhood
indoctrinations as adults, without any thought or question to
the legitimacy of those childhood indoctrinations...

Without any thought to it, we simply assume that our childhood
indoctrinations, the "telos" we were "educated" with, is actually
the "telos" we should have... instead of following the advice of
both Socrates and Nietzsche... one said, "Know thyself"
and N. "become who you are"

and unless one seriously examines those childhood indoctrinations
and decides that they are in fact, the "prejudices" we have or
should have...

in a serious way, we are held hostage by our childhood indoctrinations
until we gain some courage and examine them honestly,
openly, with courage.. we cannot free ourselves of our
childhood indoctrinations.. the years from 12 to perhaps 30,
are often the years that the brave examine their values and
beliefs to see if they are simply indoctrinations or are they
the actual values and beliefs that we hold...

As with millions, I was indoctrinated with the "telos" of the society,
state, culture I was born into... and with some difficulty, I was able
to discover my own values and beliefs, separate and apart, from
my childhood indoctrinations... I have my own, personal "telos"
that is different and separate from my state, culture and society...

so, what 'Telos" do you have and is it really yours or have
you just accepted your childhood indoctrinations?

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:38 pm And what of those who come from places other than western Europe?
they have a different set of indoctrinations, myths, superstitions,
habits, bias and prejudice based on their own cultural indoctrinations....
I live in California, and I regularly deal with Asian cultures, and their
biases, habits, myths, superstitions are very different than mine...
it isn't better or worse, just different... and that is because
their indoctrinations are different than mine were...
which means their idea of "telos" is different than mine...

You say their (the Asians')

biases, habits, myths, superstitions are very different than

yours but they are no better or worse?
How do you know this? Why do you keep yours and not take on theirs if they are the same in value?

and the final point is that we, for various reasons, fail to overcome
our childhood indoctrinations.... we simply accept our childhood
indoctrinations as adults, without any thought or question to
the legitimacy of those childhood indoctrinations...

So, it's bad if you haven't questioned them, but even if they are different they are no better or worse. If I question my childhood values and taken on a kind of modern Asian slightly neo-Confucian set of values and a Chinese person questions their values and takes on the liberal, more or less European humanist values of my parents, but these values, as you say, are not better or worse than each other, what have we gained?

And isn't that a Western value, that one should question one's values and potentially change and differs from many more traditional less individualistic cultural values?

Without any thought to it, we simply assume that our childhood
indoctrinations, the "telos" we were "educated" with, is actually
the "telos" we should have... instead of following the advice of
both Socrates and Nietzsche... one said, "Know thyself"
and N. "become who you are"

I don't think I ever thought that way. Which is partly a tribute to my parents, partly due to my temperment, but also a side effect of my culture.

As with millions, I was indoctrinated with the "telos" of the society,
state, culture I was born into... and with some difficulty, I was able
to discover my own values and beliefs, separate and apart, from
my childhood indoctrinations... I have my own, personal "telos"
that is different and separate from my state, culture and society...

Though it seems to fit rather well with Western society, post Enlightenment, on the liberal (for Americans) side of the spectrum.

so, what 'Telos" do you have and is it really yours or have
you just accepted your childhood indoctrinations?

Well, no but then how to I move escape from having been raised by two people who questioned a lot of things and in their culture that was ok? And how do I decide that given that I value this, it is no better than the values of someone who does not have that culture and, for example, believes in maintaining traditional values, following the advice of elder members of my family, perhaps even including ancestor worship?

Peter Kropotkin:
And what of those who come from places other than western Europe?
they have a different set of indoctrinations, myths, superstitions,
habits, bias and prejudice based on their own cultural indoctrinations....
I live in California, and I regularly deal with Asian cultures, and their
biases, habits, myths, superstitions are very different than mine...
it isn't better or worse, just different... and that is because
their indoctrinations are different than mine were...
which means their idea of "telos" is different than mine..

IW: You say their (the Asians')

biases, habits, myths, superstitions are very different than

yours but they are no better or worse?
How do you know this? Why do you keep yours and not take on theirs if they are the same in value?

K: because I am not interested in taking anyone's "indoctrinations", I am engaged
in finding/creating my own...

K: and the final point is that we, for various reasons, fail to overcome
our childhood indoctrinations.... we simply accept our childhood
indoctrinations as adults, without any thought or question to
the legitimacy of those childhood indoctrinations...

IW: So, it's bad if you haven't questioned them, but even if they are different they are no better or worse. If I question my childhood values and taken on a kind of modern Asian slightly neo-Confucian set of values and a Chinese person questions their values and takes on the liberal, more or less European humanist values of my parents, but these values, as you say, are not better or worse than each other, what have we gained?

K: we have gained values/beliefs/indoctrinations that are actually ours,
not given to us or "educated" or "indoctrinated" into us, but our own...
in the west, it was Schopenhauer who began the trend of
of accepting the eastern values/ beliefs... and that is ok, because
he actually thought about it, investigated it, challenged his own
indoctrinations/values... and that is all I am saying... challenge/
investigate your values/beliefs/indoctrinations and see if they
are actually your values and not someone else's..

IW: And isn't that a Western value, that one should question one's values and potentially change and differs from many more traditional less individualistic cultural values?

K: the point of the post is to get one, you or anyone, to investigate the values
and beliefs/indoctrinations that we have and see if those values/indoctrinations
are actually values and beliefs that we hold, and not given/educated into us...

K: Without any thought to it, we simply assume that our childhood
indoctrinations, the "telos" we were "educated" with, is actually
the "telos" we should have... instead of following the advice of
both Socrates and Nietzsche... one said, "Know thyself"
and N. "become who you are"

Iw: I don't think I ever thought that way. Which is partly a tribute to my parents, partly due to my temperment, but also a side effect of my culture.

K: are your values/beliefs/indoctrinations yours or are they simple values/
beliefs/indoctrinations of your parents/culture/state/society?

K: As with millions, I was indoctrinated with the "telos" of the society,
state, culture I was born into... and with some difficulty, I was able
to discover my own values and beliefs, separate and apart, from
my childhood indoctrinations... I have my own, personal "telos"
that is different and separate from my state, culture and society...

IW: Though it seems to fit rather well with Western society, post Enlightenment, on the liberal (for Americans) side of the spectrum.

K; Two things, first, as I have stated more than once, I believe in the values and
goals/telos of the Enlightenment... if there was a high point of intellectual history
in Europe, I would say it was the Enlightenment.. which is to say, that is my
own personal value/belief.. and two, I have come to this statement because
I challenged and overcame my own personal indoctrinations/education...
are my values and beliefs western in nature? yep...just as I cannot get into
the mindset of people in the future, I cannot get into the mindset of those
in the past....in other words, I cannot, no matter how hard I try, I cannot
get into the mindset of people in the past.. I don't have the milieu, or
environment, or education to place myself into their values or beliefs..
just as they cannot get into my mindset.. I cannot escape entirely my
own time and place.. my thoughts are bracketed by the times
and place of my birth...I cannot go outside of the values and beliefs
and indoctrinations of my situation...my birth...I am limited by my
current society/state/civilization to a certain set of values and beliefs..
for example, I can read about the Samuri of Japan, but I cannot, ever
get into their mindset because my state/culture/civilization is different
than the Samuri...

K: so, what 'Telos" do you have and is it really yours or have
you just accepted your childhood indoctrinations?

IW: Well, no but then how to I move escape from having been raised by two people who questioned a lot of things and in their culture that was ok? And how do I decide that given that I value this, it is no better than the values of someone who does not have that culture and, for example, believes in maintaining traditional values, following the advice of elder members of my family, perhaps even including ancestor worship?

K: AND AS LONG as you have examined it, understood it, made it your own by
self-examination, then you can adapt and accept any value system of your choice..
the point is not to dump or walk away from traditional values, but to examine them
and see if they are values that actually are your values and not just values that
were indoctrinated into you...

Kropotkin

It seems that it would be more valuable to evaluate whether a value is appropriate to a time and place rather than just deciding that it suits you personally.

There are lots of self-centered, narcissistic values and that's part of the current problem.

Me, me, ME.

The basis of morals/ethics is the continuation of traditional values
and beliefs that are carried down from generation to generation,
within the indoctrinations of childhood.. indoctrinations from
state, family, culture, the society... we don't wonder or ask,
are the childhood indoctrinations of the state, family, culture
or the society, in terms of morals and ethics, are those
childhood indoctrinations really our morals/ethics?

or have we simply adapted morals/values/ethics from
our childhood indoctrinations.. which have no bearing on
our lives today because we exist within a vastly different
milieu.. might we consider changing or adapting our morals/
ethics to keep more in line with the reality of our times?

We live in a modern, technical, scientific society/state today...
should our values/morals/ethics come from 2000 years ago,
from shepherds and mostly illiterate people? Is that the
age-appropriate values/beliefs/morals that we should have?
(age appropriate means 2022 and not beliefs from 1000 BC?)

We need to have both a personal and a society wise reevaluation
of values, beliefs, morals/ethics.. to investigate what morals/ethics/values
that are right and appropriate to us today, in 2020... to discard values
and beliefs/moral/ethics that were right 2000 years ago, but not right/
appropriate in our day and age...

one such value is the biblical injunction, "God blessed them and said unto them,
"Be fruitful and multiply" Genesis 1:28... this injunction was right and
appropriate given the times that the bible was written in, but given our modern
times, where many of our difficulties are the result of a massive overpopulation
problem.... we are sinking under the weight of too many people and not enough
resources.... how do we solve this problem in light of the biblical injunction?

even such basics as morals/ethics must be reevaluated to see if they match
the current situation of our times...

Kropotkin

Next up.

How to go about evaluating the current situation.

How to go about evaluating which values are best for the current situation.

Easy peasy

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:06 pm It seems that it would be more valuable to evaluate whether a value is appropriate to a time and place rather than just deciding that it suits you personally.

There are lots of self-centered, narcissistic values and that's part of the current problem.

Me, me, ME.

K: and what is the problem with ME, ME, Me?
the fact is that although we live within and by a society/state/culture,
in the end what keeps the "machine" of the state, society, culture
moving/going is the individual choices we make...as long as enough people
agree on a "format" under which to live, then that society hums along..
but what if, as in right now, a large percentage of people practices nihilism
and denies the values and morals of the traditional values and morals of
tradition? I speak specifically of the GOP/MAGA types that have
denigrated the values and morals that is the basis of America?
now one might say, but Kropotkin, isn't that what you want?
to understand and work out the values/morals/ethics based on
a clear understanding of values as worked out by an reevaluation
of values... not, as the GOP/MAGA types have done, which is reject
values and morals, because of superstitions, prejudice, bias, habits,
myths that have no relationship with reality or the facts on the ground...

to give one such example, slavery was not questioned as a fact, for thousands
of years... it was a given that there should be slaves.. it wasn't questioned by
anyone until about 1780 or so in Great Britain... and by each individual
consciousness becoming aware of what slavery actually meant, that
we were, as a state, or a culture or a society, able to overcome
traditional values that was slavery...to overcome doesn't flow from
the state to the individual, but flows from the individual to the state...
we cannot overcome a society/state values/moral/ethics until it
has been overcome within us individually.. the process flow from
the one, the individual to the many, the state... so, yes, the
process does travel from me to the state/society...

Kropotkin