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Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm
by Gary Childress
I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:18 pm
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?
You are near the brain. What you experience is simulated by Mind using the state of your brain, your sensory system, etc.

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?
You are near the brain. What you experience is simulated by Mind using the state of your brain, your sensory system, etc.
What I truly wonder is; is there a particular part of my brain that "I" am in? In other words, suppose, instead of successfully transplanting my whole brain into the other body, what if a part of my brain was successfully transplanted into the other body? For the purpose of the thought experiment, suppose the other body has everything in it that was physically identical to me except for the fact that it is not "me" in it. In other words, there are two identical bodies, me and my twin brother. One of us is in the kitchen looking at the refrigerator and the other (me) in the spare room looking at the computer screen. What part of the brain and how large a portion of that part would need to be (successfully) transplanted into the other body in order to move "me" into that other body? Would the whole brain need to be moved? And if the whole brain wasn't moved, if particular parts were swapped between me and my twin brother, what would happen to me? Would I cease to exist or would I eventually be looking at the refrigerator once enough of the requisite parts were swapped?

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:51 pm
by Hermit Philosopher
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?
You are near the brain. What you experience is simulated by Mind using the state of your brain, your sensory system, etc.
What I truly wonder is; is there a particular part of my brain that "I" am in? In other words, suppose, instead of successfully transplanting my whole brain into the other body, what if a part of my brain was successfully transplanted into the other body? For the purpose of the thought experiment, suppose the other body has everything in it that was physically identical to me except for the fact that it is not "me" in it. In other words, there are two identical bodies, me and my twin brother. One of us is in the kitchen looking at the refrigerator and the other (me) in the spare room looking at the computer screen. What part of the brain and how large a portion of that part would need to be (successfully) transplanted into the other body in order to move "me" into that other body? Would the whole brain need to be moved? And if the whole brain wasn't moved, if particular parts were swapped between me and my twin brother, what would happen to me? Would I cease to exist or would I eventually be looking at the refrigerator once enough of the requisite parts were swapped?
Dear Gary,

I suppose one could say that the sensation of an “I” is the effect of a mind’s interpretation of the full sum of a body’s experiences.

If a body was “taken apart”, “you” would not be in any of those parts. “You” are only in the sum of them.

Much like a “group-mentality” is not present in any one individual, yet is very much a living force within the group.


Humbly,
Hermit

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:17 pm
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?
You are near the brain. What you experience is simulated by Mind using the state of your brain, your sensory system, etc.
What I truly wonder is; is there a particular part of my brain that "I" am in?
The sense of "I" is a state generated by Mind depending on the particular formation of neurons in your brain.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm In other words, suppose, instead of successfully transplanting my whole brain into the other body, what if a part of my brain was successfully transplanted into the other body?
Which part of the brain are you transplanting?
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm For the purpose of the thought experiment, suppose the other body has everything in it that was physically identical to me except for the fact that it is not "me" in it. In other words, there are two identical bodies, me and my twin brother. One of us is in the kitchen looking at the refrigerator and the other (me) in the spare room looking at the computer screen. What part of the brain and how large a portion of that part would need to be (successfully) transplanted into the other body in order to move "me" into that other body?
You don't experience any change after transplantation. There are two identical persons with two senses of "I" in different places. The sense of "I" is just a state experienced by Mind.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm Would the whole brain need to be moved?
No, even you don't experience a change even if you move a single neuron or the whole brain.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm And if the whole brain wasn't moved, if particular parts were swapped between me and my twin brother, what would happen to me?
Nothing.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm Would I cease to exist or would I eventually be looking at the refrigerator once enough of the requisite parts were swapped?
There is not a real "I" as I stated. The sense of "I" is just a state. There are two different senses of "I" in different places that don't change during perfect transplantation.

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:11 pm
by Gary Childress
Hermit Philosopher wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:51 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:18 pm
You are near the brain. What you experience is simulated by Mind using the state of your brain, your sensory system, etc.
What I truly wonder is; is there a particular part of my brain that "I" am in? In other words, suppose, instead of successfully transplanting my whole brain into the other body, what if a part of my brain was successfully transplanted into the other body? For the purpose of the thought experiment, suppose the other body has everything in it that was physically identical to me except for the fact that it is not "me" in it. In other words, there are two identical bodies, me and my twin brother. One of us is in the kitchen looking at the refrigerator and the other (me) in the spare room looking at the computer screen. What part of the brain and how large a portion of that part would need to be (successfully) transplanted into the other body in order to move "me" into that other body? Would the whole brain need to be moved? And if the whole brain wasn't moved, if particular parts were swapped between me and my twin brother, what would happen to me? Would I cease to exist or would I eventually be looking at the refrigerator once enough of the requisite parts were swapped?
Dear Gary,

I suppose one could say that the sensation of an “I” is the effect of a mind’s interpretation of the full sum of a body’s experiences.

If a body was “taken apart”, “you” would not be in any of those parts. “You” are only in the sum of them.

Much like a “group-mentality” is not present in any one individual, yet is very much a living force within the group.


Humbly,
Hermit
So if I have an arm amputated I would probably stop having sensations from that arm, however, would I cease to exist? What about a part of the brain? If a part of my brain were amputated, say a part attached to a cancerous section, would I cease to exist? Which part of the brain would need to be amputated or how much of the brain would need to be amputated in order for me to stop having any sensation whatsoever? Is there a particular spot in the brain where "I" am? And if you amputated that spot where "I" am, and if you put it back after amputation, would I come back to life--wake up as it were?

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:17 pm
There is not a real "I" as I stated. The sense of "I" is just a state. There are two different senses of "I" in different places that don't change during perfect transplantation.
So if part of my brain was successfully transplanted in my twin and part of his brain was successfully transplanted in mine, which would I experience; seeing a refrigerator or seeing a computer screen?

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:27 pm
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:17 pm
There is not a real "I" as I stated. The sense of "I" is just a state. There are two different senses of "I" in different places that don't change during perfect transplantation.
So if part of my brain was successfully transplanted in my twin and part of his brain was successfully transplanted in mine, which would I experience; seeing a refrigerator or seeing a computer screen?
You experience the same sense of "I" but you feel that you are in a different place. You however cannot distinguish any displacement unless the memory related to the first location where you were before transplantation is also moved by you. If you don't change the state of the memory of course you feel that something has changed. In another word, you need to rewire the neurons of yourself to erase the former memory and replace it with new memory. If you do this then you don't feel any displacement.

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:25 pm
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:17 pm
There is not a real "I" as I stated. The sense of "I" is just a state. There are two different senses of "I" in different places that don't change during perfect transplantation.
So if part of my brain was successfully transplanted in my twin and part of his brain was successfully transplanted in mine, which would I experience; seeing a refrigerator or seeing a computer screen?
You experience the same sense of "I" but you feel that you are in a different place. You however cannot distinguish any displacement unless the memory related to the first location where you were before transplantation is also moved by you. If you don't change the state of the memory of course you feel that something has changed. In another word, you need to rewire the neurons of yourself to erase the former memory and replace it with new memory. If you do this then you don't feel any displacement.
So if I become a victim of amnesia, does that mean I will cease to exist? I would think I would still exist, albeit I wouldn't have my memories. But I would still be conscious, right? So I would either see a refrigerator or a computer screen. But which would I see and what parts of the brain would need to be transplanted in order to see which object?

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:37 pm
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:25 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm

So if part of my brain was successfully transplanted in my twin and part of his brain was successfully transplanted in mine, which would I experience; seeing a refrigerator or seeing a computer screen?
You experience the same sense of "I" but you feel that you are in a different place. You however cannot distinguish any displacement unless the memory related to the first location where you were before transplantation is also moved by you. If you don't change the state of the memory of course you feel that something has changed. In another word, you need to rewire the neurons of yourself to erase the former memory and replace it with new memory. If you do this then you don't feel any displacement.
So if I become a victim of amnesia, does that mean I will cease to exist?
No.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm I would think I would still exist, albeit I wouldn't have my memories.
Yes.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm But I would still be conscious, right?
Yes.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm So I would either see a refrigerator or a computer screen. But which would I see and what parts of the brain would need to be transplanted in order to see which object?
Parietal lobe. You can find more about different lobes and their functioning here.

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:18 am
by Dimebag
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?
You are near the brain. What you experience is simulated by Mind using the state of your brain, your sensory system, etc.
What I truly wonder is; is there a particular part of my brain that "I" am in? In other words, suppose, instead of successfully transplanting my whole brain into the other body, what if a part of my brain was successfully transplanted into the other body? For the purpose of the thought experiment, suppose the other body has everything in it that was physically identical to me except for the fact that it is not "me" in it. In other words, there are two identical bodies, me and my twin brother. One of us is in the kitchen looking at the refrigerator and the other (me) in the spare room looking at the computer screen. What part of the brain and how large a portion of that part would need to be (successfully) transplanted into the other body in order to move "me" into that other body? Would the whole brain need to be moved? And if the whole brain wasn't moved, if particular parts were swapped between me and my twin brother, what would happen to me? Would I cease to exist or would I eventually be looking at the refrigerator once enough of the requisite parts were swapped?
If the problems of wiring up another person’s nervous system to your brain, if there were not differences between their nervous system and your nervous system such as different methods of nerve communication, number of nerve pathways, exact mapping between brain and nerve pathways, no conflict between yours and their nervous systems in terms of rejection of external different bodily organs, compatible blood types, etc etc etc. then possibly you would experience your self, who you are now, with your memories thoughts personality etc, in another person’s body.

There may be some body dysmorphia, mismatches between what your brain thinks your body should be, and the actual experience of the body, difficulties coordinating the new body, but that would soon be adapted to.

In terms of swapping brain parts between you and your twin brother, it depends on the parts. You could swap his amygdala and yours (the brain area responsible for emotion), but unless you also swapped the millions of functional connections (axons- the wiring between neurons) between the amygdala and the area’s where memories are stored, your emotional tendencies might not be carried over, as with your personality. It’s definitely not as simple or clear cut as swapping parts of the brain. It would be like trying to copy parts of the internet to different mainframes, the internet is distributed among millions of different servers and mainframes, you need to preserve the data and the connections.

There is a very simplistic view of the brain being comprised of “modules” or black boxes which could in theory be swapped in or out, but that view is just not the reality of the brain. The brain is like a mess of wiring, all connected together, with trillions of wires (axons).

But, you could imagine that if in theory you could do what you ask, swap certain functional areas, those functions in you would eventually change, to the point where, if you swapped out each other’s memories, and behavioural dispositions, you would actually functionally be the other person. If you swapped each other’s “default mode networks” (like the core network which makes you who you are, essentially the ego), then you would probably experience being transitioned to the other body.

But, if you were a realised being, one who has transcended the ego, you would realise that nothing actually transfers, because who you think you are is actually a construct.

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:23 am
by Hermit Philosopher
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:11 pm So if I have an arm amputated I would probably stop having sensations from that arm, however, would I cease to exist? What about a part of the brain? If a part of my brain were amputated, say a part attached to a cancerous section, would I cease to exist? Which part of the brain would need to be amputated or how much of the brain would need to be amputated in order for me to stop having any sensation whatsoever? Is there a particular spot in the brain where "I" am? And if you amputated that spot where "I" am, and if you put it back after amputation, would I come back to life--wake up as it were?
Hi Gary,

Having read more of your follow-up questions to people in thread, I see that I may have misunderstood what you’d been after.

I’d still say that thinking of the “I”* as a physical thing, with a particular, physical location, may be what’s confusing, in that it’s not a specific part that must be “removed” from your body for your sense of “I” to be removed or vanish.

That is; as long as a) you have awareness (are conscious), b) there’s something to be physically aware of and c) you have something physical through which to be aware of it by; you will experience an “I”. If any of these cease, so will your experience of an “I”.

I don’t know if this makes more sense to you than my previous comment. Possibly not?


Humbly,
Hermit


*) The sense of “I” is self-awareness/consciousness. This grows out of awareness/experience of what is encountered through one’s senses.

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:00 am
by Sculptor
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.
This is where you make your first mistake; adopting classical dualism. You are assuming that you are somehow separate from your body.
You are not "located" in your body. You are not something temporarily inhabiting a zombie of flesh and bone. You are what you is. If you loose an arm you have genuinely lost a part of your self.
When your body stops working, you are going to end. No one gets out of this alive!

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:02 pm
by Dontaskme
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?
The I AM that asks the question where AM I

Doesn't exist except as a conceptual fictional character inside the Absolute Self, which can never be accessed by a dream character since it's just an illusion.

You are the ABSOLUTE dreaming difference where there is none, here now, nowhere, all at once, once without a second.

To know where you are requires an antenna to transmit your whereabouts, which are usually where ever you are, there you are.

The brain is the antenna. No brain, no location.


.

Re: Exactly Where Am I?

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:08 pm
by Age
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:10 pm I suppose in some sense I seem to be located in my body. If my body is not near the computer, then I am not near the computer.

Suppose I am now looking at my computer screen. If I get up and walk away from the computer screen, into the kitchen, I am no longer near it. I would then be looking at the refrigerator (for the sake of argument). What would happen if, instead of getting up and walking to the kitchen, my brain was (successfully) surgically removed from the rest of my body and (successfully) surgically transplanted into another body with a pair of eyes attached to it that was pointed in the direction of the refrigerator? Would "I" then still (equally) be looking at the refrigerator? Would "I" feel the sensations that were running through the other body?
You just wrote, "If I get up and walk away ...", which would literally mean that 'I' am 'the body'. So, wherever 'the body' is, therefore 'I am'.

But, unfortunately, 'I' am NOT 'the body'. So, 'I' can NOT and do NOT 'get up and walk away'.

And, to provide 'you' with the IRREFUTABLE answer to 'your' question here, 'you' will first have to learn and know the difference between 'the you' and 'thee I'.