Philosophy Now Forum

David Hume once wrote:

"Reason is an ought to be the slave of the passions"

I ask, why is that? It seems to me that given the nature of passions,
we should learn to contain, control our passions.. and one method
to control/contain our passions is through the effort of reason...

I have suffered from the "pangs" of passion.. more than once, my passions
lead me to go out of control... to be unable to control my speech, to control
my actions... I was lead by my passions to be unable control who I was...

from the loss of control leads to violence, mayhem, murder, instability
chaos and even insanity... when I was out of control from my passions, I
was unstable, even perhaps insane... the trick to having passions is to
be able to contain, control those passions.. to have reason be in charge,
not the passions... I have learned this from my own experience....
no matter how deep my passions go, I still have them in control...
I am in charge, not my passions..

but for many, many people they lead from their passions... they don't
act or react from being in control... they are out of control if they
allow their passions to be in control.... Look in the United States from
the threats that are coming from the legally executed search warrant on IQ45..
the far right has threatened the FBI, the agents on site at Mar-a-Largo,
the property of the federal government and the FBI...threats on
the head of the Justice Department, Marrick Garland...for example,
MTG, Marjorie Taylor Greens has filed articles of impeachment against
Garland... yes, she is dumber than dirt, but she has allowed her emotions
to threaten the AG... This impeachment threat is nothing more than Kabuki
theatre, I will grant you, but still, it gives the idea of
of the threat of those who follow passions instead of reason....

now the beauty of reason over passion is several.. but one of the main one
is that passion can wax and wan.. it isn't stable or remain constant...
I have had great passion for some women, and yet years later I couldn't even
tell you, their names.. Or what they looked like passion rises and fades..
quite often quickly and with no rhyme or reason...

the strength of reason is that within reason, there is no wild up and downs
stemming from reason.. reason remains the same, day in and day out,
24/7/365.... my reason remains the same, now my understanding of
a topic might change.. as I grow older and by using experience, I
can understand things better than I did when I was younger... in addition
to my reason, I can add experience to an understanding of a topic...
I grant you, that my use of experience to explain things, may be tainted
by emotions and passions, but given enough time, I can view topics with
reason...at one time, I was madly in love with a women... and I was wildly
out of control, my passions carried me way beyond logic or reason...
but today, I can view that event, one filled with passion and emotions,
with a degree of detachment or dispassionate understanding that I didn't
have about that person for years....we can, given time, understand
passionate, emotional events, people and places with reason and
detachment.... for many, not all, but many can now see 9/11 without
being emotional, or passionate.. at the time, I was sick and furious about
9/11.. but today, I can see that event without becoming passionate or
emotional...in my mind today, 9/11 is no different than Perl Harbor as events go,
and Perl Harbor was 17 years before I was born...but for many, they are still
lost, living in the events of 9/11.. which was 21 years ago...

passion, emotion has a place in our lives, make no mistake,
but we cannot allow passion, emotion to lead our lives...
passion/emotions are too unstable, to disruptive, to insecure and far
to irrational to allow our lives to be dictated by passions/emotions...

and certain times, events, people need, in fact must have this passion/emotions...
for example, falling in love... is all about the passion and emotions... falling in
love isn't about reason, logic, being bound by logic or reason....

falling in love is chaotic, turbulent, disorganized, deranged...
there is no logic or reasoning or even controlling falling in love...
and that is not a bad thing.. at times, I wish I could fall madly in love
with someone to reengage that feeling.... but I am in love, just not
the falling in love, deranged and chaotic love that is new love...
I have the love of being with someone for 30 years love and there is
nothing wrong with that.. but that love, as deep as it is, isn't the energetic,
deranged, chaotic love of new love... and at times, I miss it...
but today, I have not the energy or desire to engage in that
''Love out of control" type of love...and it is doubtful I will ever
have the chance to reengage in that type of love.. and I am ok with that...
and that is the voice of logic, reason, experience...
any new love can never match the love of 30 years and counting...
I no longer burn and that is a good thing.. for being that wildly in love
is one being in danger of being burned... and I no longer have any interest
in toying with being burned...and that is logic, reason, and experience at work...

Kropotkin

You're like a modern day Aristotle, keter. Do you catalogue your work into volumes cuz I've seen you start a thread about damn near every conceivable philosophical subject there is.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm You're like a modern day Aristotle, keter. Do you catalogue your work into volumes cuz I've seen you start a thread about damn near every conceivable philosophical subject there is.

K: thanks.. I try... but I must say, I am curious about everything...
even at my advance age of 63...and I hope to stay curious until
5 minutes after I die...one can only hope...

Kropotkin

i admire and envy the youthful enthusiasm you have for philosophy, especially at your age. i dunno how you do it. I'm already burned out and you got almost twenty years on me.

I think I've become a bitter cynic, keter. Like Diogenes or sumthin. A vulgar hedonist devoid of any spiritual values. The guy Kierkegaard and Camus warned you about becoming. My existentialism goes so hard it's like extratentialism. I'm like an extratentialist.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm David Hume once wrote:

"Reason is an ought to be the slave of the passions"

I ask, why is that?

You've said why you think it is not, but not why Hume thought it is, or even how you reason it could be true.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm David Hume once wrote:

"Reason is an ought to be the slave of the passions"

I ask, why is that?

Well, the simple answer is that pretty much everyone applies their reason to their passion. The way that philosophy works is that we start with a premise we have some sort of passion for; bear in mind that Hume was writing in the 18th century and 'passion' in most contexts didn't have the urgency we associate with the word. So you might like the idea of/have a passion for altruism and you will apply your reason to that passion to rationalise altruistic behaviour. You might equally have a passion for egoism and use reason to justify that.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm David Hume once wrote:

"Reason is an ought to be the slave of the passions"

I ask, why is that?

These types of questions, asked for clarification, are best asked directly to the speaker/author, obviously when they can be reached.

Why some human being labelled "david hume" actually wrote that will never now be known. Unless, of course, "david hume" left a not yet found note or message explaining, 'why that is'.

So, until then, forever more the answer to your question here will only ever be just a guess, or just an assumption, only.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm It seems to me that given the nature of passions,
we should learn to contain, control our passions.. and one method
to control/contain our passions is through the effort of reason...

Why, what exactly is the 'nature of passion'.

You speak here like 'passion' is some thing that is 'out of control'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm I have suffered from the "pangs" of passion.. more than once, my passions
lead me to go out of control... to be unable to control my speech, to control
my actions... I was lead by my passions to be unable control who I was...

Here we have ANOTHER example of an attempt at "justifying" and/or "minimizing" one's own wrong behaviors.

See, the adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, would continually blame some OTHER 'thing' for their wrong ways. On just about every occasion it was NEVER 'them', but it was some thing ELSE that 'made them do it'.

Once who and what thee True Self is EXACTLY, is KNOWN, then what becomes crystal clear is emotions NEVER have 'control'.

Which was contrary to popular BELIEF, in the days when this was being written.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm from the loss of control leads to violence, mayhem, murder, instability
chaos and even insanity...

Did 'you', personally, do all these things, because of 'passion', "peter kropotkin"? Or, are you just blaming 'passion' for why "others" do these things?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm when I was out of control from my passions, I
was unstable, even perhaps insane...

What exactly you had 'passion' for is now becoming very intriguing. Will you tell us what 'your passion' was about or for exactly?

If no, then why not?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm the trick to having passions is to
be able to contain, control those passions.. to have reason be in charge,
not the passions... I have learned this from my own experience....
no matter how deep my passions go, I still have them in control...
I am in charge, not my passions..

There exists a very strong 'passion' for what I am doing and achieving here. But this has never led to any of the things you claim above.

Could thee actual Truth be you just ALLOWED the emotion of 'passion' to have control, instead of you just staying 'in control'?

Or, do you still believe that 'passion' was 'in control' before?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm but for many, many people they lead from their passions... they don't
act or react from being in control... they are out of control if they
allow their passions to be in control....

It could be said that ALL of 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, have let ALL emotions have control of 'you', at some time or another. The emotion 'passion' is just one of the 450 or so OTHER emotions, which 'you', adult human beings, allow to have control over 'you', and 'your' behaviors. 'Passion' is NO different than ALL of the other emotions here.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm Look in the United States from
the threats that are coming from the legally executed search warrant on IQ45..
the far right has threatened the FBI, the agents on site at Mar-a-Largo,
the property of the federal government and the FBI...threats on
the head of the Justice Department, Marrick Garland...for example,
MTG, Marjorie Taylor Greens has filed articles of impeachment against
Garland... yes, she is dumber than dirt, but she has allowed her emotions
to threaten the AG... This impeachment threat is nothing more than Kabuki
theatre, I will grant you, but still, it gives the idea of
of the threat of those who follow passions instead of reason....

Here we have a another great example of one allowing their own views, beliefs, and emotions to take control here.

This one was 'trying to' argue for 'reason' over or instead of 'passion', but what is crystal clear in this one's posts is its 'hatred' for the so-called "far right", which end up becoming what this ones posts are really about. Again, its beliefs and emotions are 'in control' here, and NOT the REAL and True Self.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm now the beauty of reason over passion is several.. but one of the main one
is that passion can wax and wan.. it isn't stable or remain constant...
I have had great passion for some women, and yet years later I couldn't even
tell you, their names.. Or what they looked like passion rises and fades..
quite often quickly and with no rhyme or reason...

the strength of reason is that within reason, there is no wild up and downs
stemming from reason..

But what about those who jump from "the right" to "the left" and vice-versa, or those who jump from "theism" to "atheism" and vice-versa? Obviously, the 'reasons' they were using BEFORE have jumped wildly. So, there is wild up and downs stemming from 'reason'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm reason remains the same, day in and day out, 24/7/365....

If so, then it could also be said that unreasonable also remains the same, day in and day out.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm my reason remains the same, now my understanding of
a topic might change..

And so to is what you say that is 'unreasonable' remains the same.

These unreasonable things you say it could be argued is because 'your emotions or feelings' are 'in control'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm as I grow older and by using experience, I
can understand things better than I did when I was younger...

You can also be fooled and deceived by past experiences. As evidenced and shown above.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm in addition
to my reason, I can add experience to an understanding of a topic...
I grant you, that my use of experience to explain things, may be tainted
by emotions and passions, but given enough time, I can view topics with
reason...at one time, I was madly in love with a women... and I was wildly
out of control, my passions carried me way beyond logic or reason...

Again, you have NOT learned, from your experience, as you are STILL here blaming 'emotions' for the way you misbehaved wrongly and badly.

If and when you learn, you will take full responsibility and say that is was 'you' who let 'your OWN emotions' have control. Why you misbehaved so wrongly and badly is because of 'you' ALONE.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm but today, I can view that event, one filled with passion and emotions,
with a degree of detachment or dispassionate understanding that I didn't
have about that person for years....we can, given time, understand
passionate, emotional events, people and places with reason and
detachment.... for many, not all, but many can now see 9/11 without
being emotional, or passionate.. at the time, I was sick and furious about
9/11..

Why?

Where you sick and furious about the Fact that the human beings who identify as "american" have KILLED FAR MORE than just those few miserable human beings in what is called "9/11".

From the way "americans" have misbehaved things like "9/11" made upon "americans" are NEEDED. AND, even after "9/11" "americans" managed to KILL FAR MORE than just those few miserable ones in "9/11".

So, what happened on "9/11" in "america" is due to happen AGAIN.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm but today, I can see that event without becoming passionate or
emotional...

What was there REALLY to become 'passionate' or 'emotional' about anyway?

"americans" KILL more "americans" EVERY month than happened on "9/11", do you become 'passionate' or 'emotional' about those DEATHS?

If no, then what is the ACTUAL difference?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm in my mind today, 9/11 is no different than Perl Harbor as events go,
and Perl Harbor was 17 years before I was born...but for many, they are still
lost, living in the events of 9/11.. which was 21 years ago...

Here is a typical very narrowed and one-sided view of things these adult human beings had, in the days when this was being written.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm passion, emotion has a place in our lives, make no mistake,
but we cannot allow passion, emotion to lead our lives...

Yet here we can clearly see you still doing this.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm passion/emotions are too unstable, to disruptive, to insecure and far
to irrational to allow our lives to be dictated by passions/emotions...

and certain times, events, people need, in fact must have this passion/emotions...
for example, falling in love... is all about the passion and emotions... falling in
love isn't about reason, logic, being bound by logic or reason....

But you just informed us of just how wrong and bad 'passion' and 'emotions' are in relation to 'love'. Now you say we NEED and MUST HAVE 'passion' and 'emotions' 'in love'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm falling in love is chaotic, turbulent, disorganized, deranged...

It certainly does NOT 'have to be'. But, if one is letting 'emotions' control the way they mis/behave, then 'falling in love' can be what you just said here.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm there is no logic or reasoning or even controlling falling in love...

This can be very easily refuted. But, because you BELIEVE otherwise you are not open to this Fact.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm and that is not a bad thing.. at times, I wish I could fall madly in love
with someone to reengage that feeling.... but I am in love, just not
the falling in love, deranged and chaotic love that is new love...
I have the love of being with someone for 30 years love and there is
nothing wrong with that.. but that love, as deep as it is, isn't the energetic,
deranged, chaotic love of new love... and at times, I miss it...
but today, I have not the energy or desire to engage in that
''Love out of control" type of love...and it is doubtful I will ever
have the chance to reengage in that type of love..

You are absolutely FREE to live 'your life' absolutely ANY way you like. So, if you do not really want CHANGE, and just want to REMAIN how and where 'you' are now, then that is your choice, ALONE.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm and I am ok with that...
and that is the voice of logic, reason, experience...

LOL There seems to be a lot of illogical and emotional Assumptions here based on Past Experiences. Which I call APE thinking

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm any new love can never match the love of 30 years and counting...

And you KNOW this HOW?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm I no longer burn and that is a good thing.. for being that wildly in love
is one being in danger of being burned... and I no longer have any interest
in toying with being burned...and that is logic, reason, and experience at work...

Kropotkin

Are you saying that you REALLY STILL do NOT have FULL CONTROL over the emotions and thoughts within, and the mis/behaviors outside, and so the only way 'you' can have some sort of control is by not allowing 'you' to ever be so-called 'wildly in love' ever again?

Age wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:18 am You speak here like 'passion' is some thing that is 'out of control'.

That's a good point. The ego doesn't trust what might happen when it loses control, and if the intent is evil then it has good reason to not trust the loss of control. If the intent is goodness, then passion creates goodness.

"Passion is the freedom from the 'me', which is the centre of all fulfilment and pain. Passion does not demand because it is, and I am not speaking of something static. Passion is the austerity of self-abnegation in which the "you" and the "me" is not; therefore passion is the essence of life. It is this that moves and lives. But when thought brings in all the problems of having and holding, then passion ceases. Without passion creation is not possible."
- Jiddu Krishnamurti

(if that is interesting, here's the source.)
https://jkrishnamurti.org/content/passion

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:30 pm David Hume once wrote:

"Reason is an ought to be the slave of the passions"

I ask, why is that?

Suppressing passion creates a psychological conflict, which is a form of inner violence in which the peace of mind that enables rational thought, that is, rational thought that is viewed from a helicopter perspective where the horizons are far, far away and curved ... that natural view of intelligent mind-sense uncorrupted by delusional thoughts leading to delusional apprehension ... that clarity of intelligence becomes obscured by the conflict that is a form of inner violence. However, with passion fueling needs, the passions guide sound reasoning that is not controlled by ego, but rather is aided by ego, and that leads to truth which lies beyond the fearful, grasping control of reasoning that is directed by ego maintenance.

But, I agree with you that that the passions can complicate and confound. The passions can be so much bother because they may take you across a continent at the drop of a hat, or even across the world against the judgment of your ego. (As I know.)

Because of the tax revenue it generates, state governments recommend Soma to keep those passions in check.

"Is there anything worse than a person who is "passionate" about something?"

From a previous thread.

Under all of that Harbal you're such a negative Nellie, which is likely an age affliction. If you last longer, you will know why that is not all, Glasshopper.

Although,
Your Alfred E. is an interesting, continuity.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:17 pm "Is there anything worse than a person who is "passionate" about something?"

Yes. A person who is not passionate about anything.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:24 pm Under all of that Harbal you're such a negative Nellie, which is likely an age affliction.

No, I've always been negative. Why do you feel the need to try and make your over enthusiasms sound like something grand by calling them "passions"?

uwot wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:25 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:17 pm "Is there anything worse than a person who is "passionate" about something?"

Yes. A person who is not passionate about anything.

Really; and what are you passionate about?

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:30 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:24 pm Under all of that Harbal you're such a negative Nellie, which is likely an age affliction.

No, I've always been negative. Why do you feel the need to try and make your over enthusiasms sound like something grand by calling them "passions"?

How does a strong crush suit you? Less grand enough?