Philosophy Now Forum

I'm all pumped up for Rings of Power. If I haven't said so before, I'm a massive Tolkienite.

One thing that's annoyed me a lot recently about RoP is that a lot of people have mistaken notions about aspects of it being explicitly against canon which aren't actually against canon, so I find myself talking about it a lot on random social media pages.

If you have canonicity misgivings about the show, give 'em to me and I'll go through them and see whether they hold any weight or not.

Otherwise just hit me with your Middle Earth questions, I guess!

(Can you tell that I'm bored at work?)

Astro Cat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:35 am I'm a massive Tolkienite.

I suppose that's better than being a Tolkienist.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:40 am

Astro Cat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:35 am I'm a massive Tolkienite.

I suppose that's better than being a Tolkienist.

Womp womp wooooomp

There are too many dwarves for my liking. I don't know why Tolkien felt it necessary to go beyond the traditional seven.

Astro Cat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:35 am I'm all pumped up for Rings of Power. If I haven't said so before, I'm a massive Tolkienite.

[/quote]I wish I was. I loved the books, especially when I was young and primarily the F of the R. When the films came out in the early 2000s I was very impressed with the imagery and even how the characters were dealt with. Very good casting and compared to most adaptions of books I didn't have a lot of direct complaints. I didn't mind the few anti-canonical moves. Tolkien didn't have much ongoing female presence until we met Eown. So, giving Arwen more of a role was just fine with me. Films can't be books. Short cuts, elisions, and sure update to today's mores, if done in a non-preachy way is just fine. But those films left a kind of over smaltzy feel. The music, man, the lingering over anyone's sacrifice. I felt gaggy. There's also something cold about the films. Not the plot say, or the smiles of the characters at the right moments, etc. Something about the cinematography, plus timing. Like not so far as 300 took it, but classical values overdone.

So, when I see RoP trailers, I get the same feel. They do look great. I have no problem with deviations from the books. When I was a kid I did read the other Middle Earth books (the Hobbit being fine) but even the others that just didn't work for me. Heck, I don't care if they are contradicted in some way.

But that feeling. We're all, even the hobbits, so statuesque, timeless and noble. Almost like a slide show about Caesar.

well for starters I wanna know what Eru wanted the demiurges to do when he brought them together and showed them a theme, and how many Edain made it to the isle after surviving the war in the second age.

Is it true that Sauron did nothing wrong, and the LotR narrative is being provided by an untrustworthy narrator? Is the real story about how an underclass, an unfairly maligned race, is righteously rising up against a racist system?

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:55 pm Is it true that Sauron did nothing wrong, and the LotR narrative is being provided by an untrustworthy narrator? Is the real story about how an underclass, an unfairly maligned race, is righteously rising up against a racist system?

It might have been better if Mordors orcs looked like the elves and the elves looked like orcs. We don't want shiny happy people to get too complacent.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:34 pm

Astro Cat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:35 am I'm all pumped up for Rings of Power. If I haven't said so before, I'm a massive Tolkienite.

I wish I was. I loved the books, especially when I was young and primarily the F of the R. When the films came out in the early 2000s I was very impressed with the imagery and even how the characters were dealt with. Very good casting and compared to most adaptions of books I didn't have a lot of direct complaints. I didn't mind the few anti-canonical moves. Tolkien didn't have much ongoing female presence until we met Eown. So, giving Arwen more of a role was just fine with me. Films can't be books. Short cuts, elisions, and sure update to today's mores, if done in a non-preachy way is just fine. But those films left a kind of over smaltzy feel. The music, man, the lingering over anyone's sacrifice. I felt gaggy. There's also something cold about the films. Not the plot say, or the smiles of the characters at the right moments, etc. Something about the cinematography, plus timing. Like not so far as 300 took it, but classical values overdone.

So, when I see RoP trailers, I get the same feel. They do look great. I have no problem with deviations from the books. When I was a kid I did read the other Middle Earth books (the Hobbit being fine) but even the others that just didn't work for me. Heck, I don't care if they are contradicted in some way.

But that feeling. We're all, even the hobbits, so statuesque, timeless and noble. Almost like a slide show about Caesar.

I don't get that feeling for anyone but the elves (and I like it for them), personally. In the Jackson films, even Gondor is supposed to be nothing but the faded glory of Númenor, and I think they nailed that.

Astro Cat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:45 pm I don't get that feeling for anyone but the elves (and I like it for them), personally. In the Jackson films, even Gondor is supposed to be nothing but the faded glory of Númenor, and I think they nailed that.

But I thought my taste was universal.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:37 pm well for starters I wanna know what Eru wanted the demiurges to do when he brought them together and showed them a theme, and how many Edain made it to the isle after surviving the war in the second age.

Well, the Ainulindalë was just a world creation myth meant to account for why, despite creationism being true in this world, there are still awful things like natural evils (e.g., temperatures that are too cold or too hot, extreme weather, etc.) The creation myth is that Melkor's hubris and attempts to muck up the song brought these things into Arda.

As for making it to the isle after surviving the war in the Second Age, I'm not sure which you mean. If you mean surviving the War of Wrath in the First Age and founding Númenor, then I don't think there's ever a number stated. The Edain migrated to Númenor for some time after Ulmo presented it. The Drúedain (later called the Woses by the Rohirrim, e.g. Ghân-buri-Ghân and his folk, the ones that created the Púkel-men statues) that dwelt around the Mouths of Sirion joined them.

If we're talking about who left the isle after Akallabêth (when Sauron tricked Ar-Pharazôn into sailing West at war against the Valar, and Eru sank Númenor), it wasn't many, certainly: Númenor had three principle footholds in Middle-Earth to which they could flee, which were Arnor, Gondor, and Umbar. Arnor became the seat of empire so to speak until its fall by the Witch-King and Angmar, Gondor we know well as the last vestiges of Númenor in the latter Third Age, and Umbar became a haven of the "non-faithful" Númenoreans that persecuted and dominated the surrounding Haradrim and from which the likes of the evil Mouth of Sauron descended.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:55 pm Is it true that Sauron did nothing wrong, and the LotR narrative is being provided by an untrustworthy narrator? Is the real story about how an underclass, an unfairly maligned race, is righteously rising up against a racist system?

Well, it is true that the Silmarillion is an unreliable narrator told from the perspective of the elves of Rivendell and penned by a hobbit (Bilbo Baggins). Tolkien used a popular literary device at the time whereby he "found" a fictional book (The Red Book of Westmarch) and "translated" it, which is how we got the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings.

So yes, the Silmarillion isn't meant to be history "as it actually happened," it's history through the strange lens of the elves and compiled and told by a hobbit.

There was a popular fan fiction called The Last Ringbearer that ran in the direction you describe (that elves were actually oppressors, and orcs, Sauron, Saruman, etc. were just innovators trying to make a living for themselves and free themselves from the conservative yoke of elvish oppression).

omg i hate it when that happens. you'll aks impossible questions about a subject you really know little about just to be a smartass and the person actually answers them and schools you.

betcha won't do that again, will ya.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:55 pm omg i hate it when that happens. you'll aks impossible questions about a subject you really know little about just to be a smartass and the person actually answers them and schools you.

betcha won't do that again, will ya.

You can joke around with a Tolkien girl until you realize she likes it

Promethean is this forum's only resident troll. Desperate for attentiion and mostly ignored.