Philosophy Now Forum

The historic religions of India have produced a wonderful culture:

Bengal Horror: 14-Year-Old Dies After Alleged Gangrape at Birthday Party, ‘Forcibly Cremated’; Son of TMC Leader Held

Bengal monitor lizard allegedly gang-raped in Maharashtra forest

There must be a shortage of Hindu temple prostitutes.

These horrors are called, "Eastern philosophy."

So if we find some murders and atrocities by members of Western religions or by atheists or by scientists we can conclude.....what exactly?
This just seems like trolling to me. You're not a troll, going by your posts elsewhere, but the implicit argument is not much of one. It's like something Veritas would throw out.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:22 pm So if we find some murders and atrocities by members of Western religions or by atheists or by scientists we can conclude.....what exactly?
This just seems like trolling to me. You're not a troll, going by your posts elsewhere, but the implicit argument is not much of one. It's like something Veritas would throw out.

Actually many atrocities can be traced to the beliefs of those who hold Western religions. All superstitions will have that result. I'm only interested in the fact that the those religions and superstitions of the East are being put over as philosophy. I was making the same point about Western religions in "'Philosophy of Religion,' is an Oxymoron." As soon as you move from evidence based reason as the foundation of philosophy it ceases to be philosophy and is either some form of idealism (reason without evidence) the foundation of all Platonic realism, mysticism, superstion, and most ideologies, or empiricism (evidence without reason, as though just observing the existence of something provided knowledge) the foundation of logical positivism and ultimately critical theory and post modernism.

There is hardly any religion, for example, (with possible exception of Islam) that promotes war and militarism more than Christianity, and it's actual history includes endless atrocities. I wasn't comparing religions--they are all wrong. I was comparing religion to what is supposed to be philosophy, though, in reality, there is precious little philosophy. Most of what goes by the name philosophy has been corrupted by various forms of idealism as well.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:53 pm Actually many atrocities can be traced to the beliefs of those who hold Western religions.

Sure

I'm only interested in the fact that the those religions and superstitions of the East are being put over as philosophy.

You can have philosophical investigations (by Easterner or by Westerners) into the ideas of any religion or anything. You can examine the claims in Buddhism, for example, and this could be a philosophical discussion. And all religions, all belief systems, include philosophical positions: ontologies, epistemologies, etc.

I was making the same point about Western religions in "'Philosophy of Religion,' is an Oxymoron." As soon as you move from evidence based reason as the foundation of philosophy it ceases to be philosophy

It seems here you are saying that only forms of empiricism are philosophy. IOW not only is your position, presumably a form of empiricism, correct, but the other positions are not philosophy. I don't think that's useful or a position held by most philosophers, including empiricists. They may well agree with their position being better, but still consider other philosophical positions to be, well, philosophy.

and is either some form of idealism (reason without evidence)

I think Kant, for example, was a philosopher and a discussion of his ideas and arguments would be philosophy.

the foundation of all Platonic realism, mysticism, superstion, and most ideologies, or empiricism (evidence without reason, as though just observing the existence of something provided knowledge)

OK, maybe you are not an empiricist, though empiricism would certainly include positions that combine evidence with reason, so I...well, I'm not quite sure what your position could be.

the foundation of logical positivism and ultimately critical theory and post modernism.

There is hardly any religion, for example, (with possible exception of Islam) that promotes war and militarism more than Christianity, and it's actual history includes endless atrocities. I wasn't comparing religions--they ar: e all wrong.

Right, fine. But you seem to be responding to just one piece of what I wrote even though it was a short post. I also mentioned how including a couple of links to crimes committed by atheists or scientists is not a good arguement.

I was comparing religion to what is supposed to be philosophy, though, in reality, there is precious little philosophy. Most of what goes by the name philosophy has been corrupted by various forms of idealism as well.

I don't see a comparison between religion and what is supposed to be philosophy. I see an implicit argument that we can conclude from a couple of links to horrible things done by religious people that nothing in Eastern religions can be philosophical or discussions of those ideas can be philosophy. I don't think that implicit argument is a good one. I don't think you have compared, here, in this thread, religion and philosophy as you say here you were.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:53 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:22 pm So if we find some murders and atrocities by members of Western religions or by atheists or by scientists we can conclude.....what exactly?
This just seems like trolling to me. You're not a troll, going by your posts elsewhere, but the implicit argument is not much of one. It's like something Veritas would throw out.

Actually many atrocities can be traced to the beliefs of those who hold Western religions. All superstitions will have that result. I'm only interested in the fact that the those religions and superstitions of the East are being put over as philosophy. I was making the same point about Western religions in "'Philosophy of Religion,' is an Oxymoron." As soon as you move from evidence based reason as the foundation of philosophy it ceases to be philosophy and is either some form of idealism (reason without evidence) the foundation of all Platonic realism, mysticism, superstion, and most ideologies, or empiricism (evidence without reason, as though just observing the existence of something provided knowledge) the foundation of logical positivism and ultimately critical theory and post modernism.

There is hardly any religion, for example, (with possible exception of Islam) that promotes war and militarism more than Christianity, and it's actual history includes endless atrocities. I wasn't comparing religions--they are all wrong. I was comparing religion to what is supposed to be philosophy, though, in reality, there is precious little philosophy. Most of what goes by the name philosophy has been corrupted by various forms of idealism as well.

many atrocities can be attributed to atheists in power who hate religion Lennon/Stalin 10 mil +, chairman Mao I do believe its 40 mil + souls they killed of their own nations. not even an enemy from another nation. what's that mean RCSanders? does that mean atheists are the best mass murders in resent history enforcing their secular gov and nation? because it sure looks like it. you might go for Hitler and say he's Christian but he had his people preach Arianism which is a belief that was rejected by the RCC way back could 500's or 700's but continued to be believed for some time in Germanic northern Europe.

_
The horrors and atrocities of the world, know no individual hemisphere..

In such populous places, virtue lives amongst vice, visibly more.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:14 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:53 pm Actually many atrocities can be traced to the beliefs of those who hold Western religions.

Sure

I'm only interested in the fact that the those religions and superstitions of the East are being put over as philosophy.

You can have philosophical investigations (by Easterner or by Westerners) into the ideas of any religion or anything. You can examine the claims in Buddhism, for example, and this could be a philosophical discussion. And all religions, all belief systems, include philosophical positions: ontologies, epistemologies, etc.

I was making the same point about Western religions in "'Philosophy of Religion,' is an Oxymoron." As soon as you move from evidence based reason as the foundation of philosophy it ceases to be philosophy

It seems here you are saying that only forms of empiricism are philosophy.

No. Both empiricism and idealism are wrong. It's a false dichotomy. It is not evidence without reason (empiricism) and not reason without evidence (idealism). Only the application of rigorous, non-contradictory reason to actual evidence is true philosophy.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:14 pm IOW not only is your position, presumably a form of empiricism, correct, but the other positions are not philosophy. I don't think that's useful or a position held by most philosophers, including empiricists. They may well agree with their position being better, but still consider other philosophical positions to be, well, philosophy.

Not empiricism which most people confuse with the physical sciences, but reason about that same existence the sciences study is philosophy. The problem with empiricism is the tacit assumption evidence (existence) provides knowledge itself simply by being observed. It doesn't. Knowledge (both scientific and philosophical) is the rational identification of what exists and the discovery of the nature of that which exists by means of concepts. Since no form of empiricism includes a rational epistemology (a correct explanation of what knowledge is) empiricism is useless.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:14 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:53 pm and is either some form of idealism (reason without evidence)

I think Kant, for example, was a philosopher and a discussion of his ideas and arguments would be philosophy.

I have to say something here. I'm not trying to change anyone else's views or correct anyone else's thinking. I'm perfectly content for you to call anything you like philosophy. When philosophy is discussed as an academic subject, the corpus of philosophy will include everyone in history who wrote anything related to philosophy.

When I use the word philosophy, I'm referring to what would be a correct understanding of the nature of those things philosophy as a discipline is concerned with, namely metaphysics, ontology, epistemology, ethics, politics, and aesthetics, and subcategories. As far as I'm concerned no philosopher in history has even correctly identified those categories, much less provided a cogent explanation of any of them. The only exceptions I recognize, with reservations, are Aristotle, Peter Abelard, and Locke.

To me, discussing any other so-called philosopher as philosophy is tantamount to discussing the ideas of alchemists and astrologers and calling it science. I regard all that passes as philosophy in academia as bunk.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:14 pm I also mentioned how including a couple of links to crimes committed by atheists or scientists is not a good arguement.

I agree, but it wasn't an argument, it was an illustration.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:14 pm I don't see a comparison between religion and what is supposed to be philosophy. I see an implicit argument that we can conclude from a couple of links to horrible things done by religious people that nothing in Eastern religions can be philosophical or discussions of those ideas can be philosophy. I don't think that implicit argument is a good one. I don't think you have compared, here, in this thread, religion and philosophy as you say here you were.

Well, I can't help what someone else sees, and if that's your impression, I'm glad to own it. It was not my purpose, however, to make an argument, but provide an illustration of how absurd superstitions embraced by people produce disastrous cultures. The caste system is rampant throughout Southern India together with other Hindu outrages of witch I just provided a couple of examples. I could provide Muslim examples and Buddhist examples, as well, but It is recent praise of Vedic religions as philosophy I was interested in.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:28 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:53 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:22 pm So if we find some murders and atrocities by members of Western religions or by atheists or by scientists we can conclude.....what exactly?
This just seems like trolling to me. You're not a troll, going by your posts elsewhere, but the implicit argument is not much of one. It's like something Veritas would throw out.

Actually many atrocities can be traced to the beliefs of those who hold Western religions. All superstitions will have that result. I'm only interested in the fact that the those religions and superstitions of the East are being put over as philosophy. I was making the same point about Western religions in "'Philosophy of Religion,' is an Oxymoron." As soon as you move from evidence based reason as the foundation of philosophy it ceases to be philosophy and is either some form of idealism (reason without evidence) the foundation of all Platonic realism, mysticism, superstion, and most ideologies, or empiricism (evidence without reason, as though just observing the existence of something provided knowledge) the foundation of logical positivism and ultimately critical theory and post modernism.

There is hardly any religion, for example, (with possible exception of Islam) that promotes war and militarism more than Christianity, and it's actual history includes endless atrocities. I wasn't comparing religions--they are all wrong. I was comparing religion to what is supposed to be philosophy, though, in reality, there is precious little philosophy. Most of what goes by the name philosophy has been corrupted by various forms of idealism as well.

many atrocities can be attributed to atheists in power who hate religion Lennon/Stalin 10 mil +, chairman Mao I do believe its 40 mil + souls they killed of their own nations. not even an enemy from another nation. what's that mean RCSanders? does that mean atheists are the best mass murders in resent history enforcing their secular gov and nation? because it sure looks like it. you might go for Hitler and say he's Christian but he had his people preach Arianism which is a belief that was rejected by the RCC way back could 500's or 700's but continued to be believed for some time in Germanic northern Europe.

It doesn't matter where you are in the world, must of the horrors and oppressions of history have been justified in the name of some religion or ideology. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of calling those ideologies philosophy or discussing them as though they were actually intellectual issue deserving serious discussion when none of them are more than supestitious lies.

MagsJ wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:08 pm _
The horrors and atrocities of the world, know no individual hemisphere..

In such populous places, virtue lives amongst vice, visibly more.

There is some truth to that, but in most soicieties it pays the truly virtuous to keep their heads down, because they are usually hated.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:45 pm

DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:28 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:53 pm
Actually many atrocities can be traced to the beliefs of those who hold Western religions. All superstitions will have that result. I'm only interested in the fact that the those religions and superstitions of the East are being put over as philosophy. I was making the same point about Western religions in "'Philosophy of Religion,' is an Oxymoron." As soon as you move from evidence based reason as the foundation of philosophy it ceases to be philosophy and is either some form of idealism (reason without evidence) the foundation of all Platonic realism, mysticism, superstion, and most ideologies, or empiricism (evidence without reason, as though just observing the existence of something provided knowledge) the foundation of logical positivism and ultimately critical theory and post modernism.

There is hardly any religion, for example, (with possible exception of Islam) that promotes war and militarism more than Christianity, and it's actual history includes endless atrocities. I wasn't comparing religions--they are all wrong. I was comparing religion to what is supposed to be philosophy, though, in reality, there is precious little philosophy. Most of what goes by the name philosophy has been corrupted by various forms of idealism as well.

many atrocities can be attributed to atheists in power who hate religion Lennon/Stalin 10 mil +, chairman Mao I do believe its 40 mil + souls they killed of their own nations. not even an enemy from another nation. what's that mean RCSanders? does that mean atheists are the best mass murders in resent history enforcing their secular gov and nation? because it sure looks like it. you might go for Hitler and say he's Christian but he had his people preach Arianism which is a belief that was rejected by the RCC way back could 500's or 700's but continued to be believed for some time in Germanic northern Europe.

It doesn't matter where you are in the world, must of the horrors and oppressions of history have been justified in the name of some religion or ideology. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of calling those ideologies philosophy or discussing them as though they were actually intellectual issue deserving serious discussion when none of them are more than supestitious lies.

do you mean like atheisms and the ideology that religion is evil? are you saying atheisms is superstitious lies?

and no you're incorrect, they are philosophies, ones you may not believe or agree with but they are a form of philosophy. consider, if you believe and or trust it, which is what is placing one's faith into. is it a philosophy or a religion?

most philosophies and or theologies are irrelevant to power unless its to convince and or justify in the minds of the public an action.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:50 pm do you mean like atheisms and the ideology that religion is evil? are you saying atheisms is superstitious lies?

Do I means what, that they are superstitious nonsens? That's exactly what I mean. All, "-isms," all, "ideologies," of any kind that are promoted as agendas or programs meant to change how others think, believe, and choose to live their lives are nonsense, whetever name they are given, atheism, anarchism, theism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, socialism, or democracy.

What any individual personally believes or does not believe does not constitute an ideology. One may embrace some ideology, but not embracing one is not an ideology. Someone who does not embrace Islam, or spiritualism, or Christian science, or a belief in Zeus is not embracing an ideology.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:50 pm ... and no you're incorrect, they are philosophies, ones you may not believe or agree with but they are a form of philosophy. consider, if you believe and or trust it, which is what is placing one's faith into. is it a philosophy or a religion?

No, I can't be wrong. I'm only talking about what I mean by philosophy, not what the mass of academically mind-crippled call it. You, and anyone else are free to call anything you like philosophy, as far as I'm concerned.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:50 pm ... most philosophies and or theologies are irrelevant to power unless its to convince and or justify in the minds of the public an action.

Isn't that exactly how all wars are justified, some supposed necessity to defend or protect some ideology, some social/political view of how a society or culture is supposed to be which is supposedly threatened?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:20 am The historic religions of India have produced a wonderful culture:

Bengal Horror: 14-Year-Old Dies After Alleged Gangrape at Birthday Party, ‘Forcibly Cremated’; Son of TMC Leader Held

Bengal monitor lizard allegedly gang-raped in Maharashtra forest

There must be a shortage of Hindu temple prostitutes.

These horrors are called, "Eastern philosophy."

As expected your competency for rational and critical thinking is eroding very badly with the so obvious hasty generalization fallacy above.

You are simply too dumb in this case to conflate two critical factors,

• 1. The knowledge pool of a specific philosophy, its original locations, philosophers, etc. All these variables come in degrees.
  
  2. The people associated with the above variables, which of all kinds and degrees.

Both points above are subject to the normal distribution of extremes at both ends and the majority in the middle.
It is very ignorant for one to use any of the extreme to represent the whole population considered.

In all of "Eastern Philosophy" in general there is no permission that enable their followers to do any of the above, i.e. gang-raping young girls or monitor lizards.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:22 pm So if we find some murders and atrocities by members of Western religions or by atheists or by scientists we can conclude.....what exactly?
This just seems like trolling to me. You're not a troll, going by your posts elsewhere, but the implicit argument is not much of one. It's like something Veritas would throw out.

For fuck sake!

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:59 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:22 pm So if we find some murders and atrocities by members of Western religions or by atheists or by scientists we can conclude.....what exactly?
This just seems like trolling to me. You're not a troll, going by your posts elsewhere, but the implicit argument is not much of one. It's like something Veritas would throw out.

For fuck sake!

Well, in the case of rape I guess it is. Iwannaplato is bang on.
RC seems to imply that the religion was the root cause of someone to commit heinous acts such as gang rape...a ridiculous notion.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:51 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:59 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:22 pm So if we find some murders and atrocities by members of Western religions or by atheists or by scientists we can conclude.....what exactly?
This just seems like trolling to me. You're not a troll, going by your posts elsewhere, but the implicit argument is not much of one. It's like something Veritas would throw out.

For fuck sake!

Well, in the case of rape I guess it is. Iwannaplato is bang on.
RC seems to imply that the religion was the root cause of someone to commit heinous acts such as gang rape...a ridiculous notion.

When you have a culture where women are considered inferior to men then yes, it's extremely relevant. I've never heard of a gang rape by a marauding gang of practicing atheists or devout scientists...