Philosophy Now Forum

Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:51 pm Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

Rhetoric can and does get a desired result, therefore it is logical to use Rhetoric.

shotguns can and do get a desired result; therefore, it is logical to use shotguns...

-Imp

DPMartin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:09 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:51 pm Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

Rhetoric can and does get a desired result, therefore it is logical to use Rhetoric.

I have the perspective, that rhetoric is a sequence created by scientific pursuit; and also, that the reason for this is to tap into the mirror in the mind:

What is the mirror, in the mind?

To clarify:
science creates rhetoric of sound, and this is to help meta identify the community that uses daylight's before is after science to enact the sequence, of showing up from publishing up.

Who said that politics is, or even should be, Logical? Politics is the world of brains, not of natural science laws. Humans thinking and acting is not the most logical of stuff in the universe. So Politics, and rhetorics, are adapted to that.

Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:51 pm Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

Is rhetoric the foundation of politics? Do you see this chronologically?

DPMartin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:09 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:51 pm Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

Rhetoric can and does get a desired result, therefore it is logical to use Rhetoric.

It can be logical to use something illogical, yes. Or, in this case, partly illogical.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:16 pm shotguns can and do get a desired result; therefore, it is logical to use shotguns...

-Imp

Sure, it can be logical to use shotguns. Generally there are better ways to open doors, for example, so it depends on the context.

trokanmariel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:10 am

DPMartin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:09 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:51 pm Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

Rhetoric can and does get a desired result, therefore it is logical to use Rhetoric.

I have the perspective, that rhetoric is a sequence created by scientific pursuit; and also, that the reason for this is to tap into the mirror in the mind:

What is the mirror, in the mind?

To clarify:
science creates rhetoric of sound, and this is to help meta identify the community that uses daylight's before is after science to enact the sequence, of showing up from publishing up.

to what good is your perspective is its way off base. and all you've clarified is that you are way off base and trying to move the subject off what you are obviously incorrect about.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:46 am

DPMartin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:09 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:51 pm Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

Rhetoric can and does get a desired result, therefore it is logical to use Rhetoric.

It can be logical to use something illogical, yes. Or, in this case, partly illogical.

what part of this is illogical?
Rhetoric is the art of persuasion, which along with grammar and logic is one of the three ancient arts of discourse.

meaningful or non-meaningful content in discourse is only the measure of its value or that the content is valid

[quote=DPMartin post_id=568646 time=1650296216 user_id=13848]
[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=568495 time=1650271611 user_id=3619]
[quote=DPMartin post_id=567977 time=1649866190 user_id=13848]


Rhetoric can and does get a desired result, therefore it is logical to use Rhetoric.
[/quote]
It can be logical to use something illogical, yes. Or, in this case, partly illogical.
[/quote]


what part of this is illogical?
Rhetoric is the art of persuasion, which along with grammar and logic is one of the three ancient arts of discourse.

meaningful or non-meaningful content in discourse is only the measure of its value or that the content is valid
[/quote]

Rhetoric is not merely convincing, it's convincing without regard for Truth, and has always been recognized by that frailty.

Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:51 pm Rhetoric taken to its logical extreme is politics; and because rhetoric is illogical, politics is illogical.

What is illogical about politics is the belief that societies can be engineered to be what someone supposes they ought to be and that the means to that engineering is some kind of agency of force called a government.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:36 pm what part of this is illogical?

Rhetoric is the art of persuasion, which along with grammar and logic is one of the three ancient arts of discourse.[/quote]Notice that rhetoric is not the category logic. It is something else. To use rhetoric can be logical. If you have a goal and need to convince people of things, it is logical to use rhetoric. But this include convincing people through processes that are manipulative and misleading. So, given that I was responding to you, and you in turn were responding to someone talking about politics AND politics via rhetoric can get people to believe and do all sorts of things that are not in their interests via implying that something is logical when it is not, my point is that rhetoric, perhaps especially in the realm of politics, but sure in, say, advertising is illogical. The use of it may be logical for the person using it, given their goals. But effective rhetoric may lead to illogical conclusions by those on the receiving end and also may even lead to poor ends even for those using the rhetoric. Their goal may only have been good for the short term, for example.

meaningful or non-meaningful content in discourse is only the measure of its value or that the content is valid

I am not sure what you mean here.

Advocate wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:06 pm Rhetoric is not merely convincing, it's convincing without regard for Truth, and has always been recognized by that frailty.

Yes, essentially rhetoric is the set of language tools used to convince people that are not based on logic. Aesthetic and other flourishes are used to seem convincing, to sound right, to sound like an authority, to undermine other positions but not based or critiquing their logic. Of course you can surround a logical argument with rhetoric. But this doesn't take away from rhetoric being tools to manipulate.