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Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:09 am
by Jori
Some people don't believe in miracles, but some people do. Some even say that miracles happen everyday because highly improbable things happen all the time. Mathematically improbable things are to be expected, but we don't know exactly what improbable thing will happen and exactly when it will happen. For instance we expect someone to win the lottery, but we don't know who will win and when you will win.
Some people don't believe miracles in the sacred texts of religions. For me those miracles may be true or not, but it doesn't matter. What matters is the theological point of the story.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:34 am
by Age
Do you know what the theological point of 'the' story is?
If yes, then how did you come to know?
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 pm
by attofishpi
Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:09 am
Do you believe in miracles?
Define the term: Miracle.
Then I will understand how, and whether to answer a closed question you posed.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:04 pm
by Skepdick
Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:09 am
Some people don't believe in miracles, but some people do. Some even say that miracles happen everyday because highly improbable things happen all the time. Mathematically improbable things are to be expected, but we don't know exactly what improbable thing will happen and exactly when it will happen. For instance we expect someone to win the lottery, but we don't know who will win and when you will win.
Some people don't believe miracles in the sacred texts of religions. For me those miracles may be true or not, but it doesn't matter. What matters is the theological point of the story.
Miracles. Falsification. What's the difference?
When you observe the infinitesimaly improbable (against the predictions of your theory) you are supposed to discard your theory, not your observation.
I'd expand on this, but why bother writing what has already been written:
http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/2
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:09 pm
by popeye1945
Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:09 am
Some people don't believe in miracles, but some people do. Some even say that miracles happen everyday because highly improbable things happen all the time. Mathematically improbable things are to be expected, but we don't know exactly what improbable thing will happen and exactly when it will happen. For instance we expect someone to win the lottery, but we don't know who will win and when you will win.
Some people don't believe miracles in the sacred texts of religions. For me those miracles may be true or not, but it doesn't matter. What matters is the theological point of the story.
Jori,
Miracles are not available to those who engage in the process of critical thinking. The definition of miracles is an event/happening which defies the laws of nature inorder to occur, this simply doesn't happen. The holy scriptures were written at a time of great ignorance and they have made that ignorace scared to believers. So, if the believer above all else wishes to remain a believer he/she must accept the absurd, the miracle.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:31 pm
by Belinda
Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:34 am
Do you know what the theological point of 'the' story is?
If yes, then how did you come to know?
Given the infinite variety of men how anyone comes to hold a belief is more interesting than the belief itself.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:10 pm
by Skepdick
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:09 pm
Miracles are not available to those who engage in the process of critical thinking. The definition of miracles is an event/happening which defies the laws of nature inorder to occur, this simply doesn't happen.
That is an example of magical thinking, not critical thinking.
You don't have any access to the "laws" of nature. You don't even know if nature has any laws. That which we call "laws" of nature are human approximations and codifications of various observational regularities.
If you observe a miracle - an event which defies the laws of nature. Something which your intuition tells you it's "impossible", then your "laws" are wrong.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:44 pm
by Belinda
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:10 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:09 pm
Miracles are not available to those who engage in the process of critical thinking. The definition of miracles is an event/happening which defies the laws of nature inorder to occur, this simply doesn't happen.
That is an example of magical thinking, not critical thinking.
You don't have any access to the "laws" of nature. You don't even know if nature has any laws. That which we call "laws" of nature are human approximations and codifications of various observational regularities.
If you observe a miracle - an event which defies the laws of nature. Something which your intuition tells you it's "impossible", then your "laws" are wrong.
'Laws of nature' (or 'laws of science ' same thing) are pro tem, practical measures, until somebody tells a better story. We all have to be pro tem as we are pushed to know our past, let alone guess our future. Miracles, therefore are miraculous because they defy laws of nature(or science) usually the law about causation.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:45 pm
by Skepdick
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:44 pm
'Laws of nature' (or 'laws of science ' same thing) are pro tem until somebody tells a better story. We all have to be pro tem as we are pushed to know our past, let alone guess our future. Miracles, therefore are miraculous because they defy laws of nature(or science) usually the law about causation.
And they are Oh! so wonderful to experience.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:47 pm
by Belinda
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:45 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:44 pm
'Laws of nature' (or 'laws of science ' same thing) are pro tem until somebody tells a better story. We all have to be pro tem as we are pushed to know our past, let alone guess our future. Miracles, therefore are miraculous because they defy laws of nature(or science) usually the law about causation.
And they are Oh! so wonderful to experience.
Are you being sarcastic? Personally I dislike miracles, and distrust all reports of miracles.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:48 pm
by Skepdick
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:47 pm
Are you being sarcastic? Personally I dislike miracles, and distrust all reports of miracles.
Not at all. Miracles shatter one's paradigm of thought. They make you question the very foundations of your belief-system.
It is like being unshackled. Freed from the prison of your own making. Out of the cave for the first time. And into a new, larger more interesting cave.
Scientific discoveries are miracles. To the scientist who first discovers them.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:51 pm
by Belinda
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:48 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:47 pm
Are you being sarcastic? Personally I dislike miracles, and distrust all reports of miracles.
Not at all. Miracles shatter one's paradigm of thought. They make you question the very foundations of your belief-system.
It is like being unshackled. Freed from the prison of your own making. Out of the cave for the first time. And into a new, larger more interesting cave.
Scientific discoveries are miracles. To the scientist who first discovers them.
Yes, well I love a good ghost story too but I always revert to determinism and causes for every event.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:52 pm
by Skepdick
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:51 pm
Yes, well I love a good ghost story too but I always revert to determinism and causes for every event.
That is a natural propensity. Even Einstein didn't think God plays dice with the universe.
But maybe he did. Way more than we care to acknowledge.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:56 pm
by Belinda
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:52 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:51 pm
Yes, well I love a good ghost story too but I always revert to determinism and causes for every event.
That is a natural propensity. Even Einstein didn't think God plays dice with the universe.
But maybe he did. Way more than we care to acknowledge.
Yes, I really do believe the basic belief in God is cosmic orderliness.
Re: Do you believe in miracles?
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:31 pm
by popeye1945
That is an example of magical thinking, not critical thinking.
You don't have any access to the "laws" of nature. You don't even know if nature has any laws. That which we call "laws" of nature are human approximations and codifications of various observational regularities.
If you observe a miracle - an event which defies the laws of nature. Something which your intuition tells you it's "impossible", then your "laws" are wrong.
[/quote]
You are most definitely a believer, one that desperately needs to be one. Therefore there really is no ground for discussion. Live long and prosper!
That is an example of magical thinking, not critical thinking.