Philosophy Now Forum

To be happy, we do all sorts of things. We lie, steal, cheat, betray, hoard, overeat, overwork, overspend, and do all sorts of illegal, violent, unhealthy, self-destructive, immoral, antisocial, psychopathic things. Then we get frustrated. Instead of trying to be happy, why don't we just perform a task for its, own sake, do the right thing, pursue meaning, engage in worthwhile tasks, be good. When tempted to eat a donut, we may just to ourselves, "I don't want to be happy."

If happiness is not our goal, we will eliminate frustration, depression, anxiety, and all those emotional problems associated with trying and failing to be happy.

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am To be happy, we do all sorts of things. We lie, steal, cheat, betray, hoard, overeat, overwork, overspend, and do all sorts of illegal, violent, unhealthy, self-destructive, immoral, antisocial, psychopathic things. Then we get frustrated. Instead of trying to be happy, why don't we just perform a task for its, own sake, do the right thing, pursue meaning, engage in worthwhile tasks, be good. When tempted to eat a donut, we may just to ourselves, "I don't want to be happy."

If happiness is not our goal, we will eliminate frustration, depression, anxiety, and all those emotional problems associated with trying and failing to be happy.

You are ignorant of human nature.

Humans perform all sorts of acts but it is not necessary that all their above actions are geared to be happy.

Generally, happiness [an emotion] is a complex neural process that is grounded on the fundamental impulse of 'pleasure' as opposed to 'pain'.

It is true some of the above processes you listed may be driven by a complicated pleasure-seeking impulse but these are perversion and are not for the purpose of general happiness. Some may even seek pain to trigger the pleasure circuit, e.g. the masochists.
A psychopath and the likes may be driven to the above evil acts by psychopathic drives, not necessary linked to pleasure nor happiness.

However all humans are programmed with a potential moral function to act good, albeit its only active in some at present and less active or dormant in the majority of people.
Thus when humans perform the above evil acts, their moral conscience if active will p**** them with pain [not happiness]. Those with an inactive moral function will continue to do evil acts.

Thus the task of humanity and humans is to find ways to activate the inherent moral function so that they will spontaneously do more good than evil or no evil at all.
The question is how to activate this inherent moral function within? This is where Applied-Ethics is relevant.

Point is, when the moral function is active, happiness will be spontaneously triggered.
To pursue happiness for happiness sake is never healthy since that would generate frustrations and unhappiness if the happiness goals are not achieved.

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am To be happy, we do all sorts of things. We lie, steal, cheat, betray, hoard, overeat, overwork, overspend, and do all sorts of illegal, violent, unhealthy, self-destructive, immoral, antisocial, psychopathic things.

FIND OUT the fundamental reason WHY you are 'unhappy', then this will help you to STOP doing the completely UNNECESSARY 'things', which you have listed here that you do.

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am Then we get frustrated.

How is getting frustrated at all going to help you be happy?

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am Instead of trying to be happy, why don't we just perform a task for its, own sake, do the right thing, pursue meaning, engage in worthwhile tasks, be good.

Because you are 'unhappy' OF COURSE.

Why are you 'unhappy'?

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am When tempted to eat a donut, we may just to ourselves, "I don't want to be happy."

Why would ANY one not want to be happy?

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am If happiness is not our goal, we will eliminate frustration, depression, anxiety, and all those emotional problems associated with trying and failing to be happy.

WHY NOT just 'be happy', instead of 'being unhappy'?

If you were, then you WILL STOP doing those 'things' that you say gets you 'frustrated'.

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am To be happy, we do all sorts of things. We lie, steal, cheat, betray, hoard, overeat, overwork, overspend, and do all sorts of illegal, violent, unhealthy, self-destructive, immoral, antisocial, psychopathic things.

Who the hell is, "we?" Speak for yourself!

If those are ways you go about seeking to live happily, you don't deserve either life or happiness and will almost surely get what you deserve.

Every successful happy person I know achieved that state by seeking to be the best human being they could be, learning all they could possibly learn and working to achieve and be the best in all things both physical and intellectual never settling for less than the best they were capable of because they valued their life and their successful living of it above all things. They are happy because they know they are competent to live life successfully and that everything they enjoy they can enjoy without guilt or regret because they have achieved and earned it by their own effort.

Your view of life and success is a terribly evil one. The kind of things you describe the truly successful could never either desire or even think of doing. What kind of people do you have for friends?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:30 pm

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am To be happy, we do all sorts of things. We lie, steal, cheat, betray, hoard, overeat, overwork, overspend, and do all sorts of illegal, violent, unhealthy, self-destructive, immoral, antisocial, psychopathic things.

Who the hell is, "we?" Speak for yourself!

If those are ways you go about seeking to live happily, you don't deserve either life or happiness and will almost surely get what you deserve.

Every successful happy person I know achieved that state by seeking to be the best human being they could be, learning all they could possibly learn and working to achieve and be the best in all things both physical and intellectual never settling for less than the best they were capable of because they valued their life and their successful living of it above all things. They are happy because they know they are competent to live life successfully and that everything they enjoy they can enjoy without guilt or regret because they have achieved and earned it by their own effort.

Your view of life and success is a terribly evil one. The kind of things you describe the truly successful could never either desire or even think of doing. What kind of people do you have for friends?

How do you define the word 'successful' in relation to 'living life'?

Age wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:05 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:30 pm

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am To be happy, we do all sorts of things. We lie, steal, cheat, betray, hoard, overeat, overwork, overspend, and do all sorts of illegal, violent, unhealthy, self-destructive, immoral, antisocial, psychopathic things.

Who the hell is, "we?" Speak for yourself!

If those are ways you go about seeking to live happily, you don't deserve either life or happiness and will almost surely get what you deserve.

Every successful happy person I know achieved that state by seeking to be the best human being they could be, learning all they could possibly learn and working to achieve and be the best in all things both physical and intellectual never settling for less than the best they were capable of because they valued their life and their successful living of it above all things. They are happy because they know they are competent to live life successfully and that everything they enjoy they can enjoy without guilt or regret because they have achieved and earned it by their own effort.

Your view of life and success is a terribly evil one. The kind of things you describe the truly successful could never either desire or even think of doing. What kind of people do you have for friends?

How do you define the word 'successful' in relation to 'living life'?

If one is alive and thoroughly enjoying their life without regret or guilt they are living successfully. But this is not a definition.

Every individual is different and what will fulfill any individual will be different. An individual life is successful when that individual understands their own potential and achieves all they can as a human being (virtue) without wasting their ability and resources on the temporary and self-destructive (vice).

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am If happiness is not our goal, we will eliminate frustration, depression, anxiety, and all those emotional problems associated with trying and failing to be happy.

Happiness comes from the word "hap," as in "happening" and "happenstance." "Hap" was the title of one of Thomas Hardy's poems, in fact, in which he meditates on the meaning of "hap."

"Hap" is "chance." Or, if you prefer, it's "luck-of-the-draw," or just "luck." It's what you may get if you're fortunate, but cannot be guaranteed by any means.

The Declaration of Independence only promises citizens a right to "the pursuit of happiness," and does not even try to promise them happiness, because it cannot. Nobody can.

"Happiness" itself cannot be a goal, because there are no reliable or certain means to produce it, and no way to guarantee it. It mayhap, it may not.

All one can end up doing is pursuing a feeling, a belief of what MAY produce happiness. But human beings are so often wrong about what will lead to actual happiness that their failure has become a cliche.

If even the best circumstances had any promise for happiness, Hollywood, not Disney, should be "the happiest place on earth."

To pursue happiness is not to be pursuing pain. Happiness involves a mirad of pleasures, none of which are experienced in intense pain. Pleasure is life fortifying. increases vitality, well pain diminishes and undermines lifes processes of staying in being. We pursue happiness/pleaure because life strives to avoid pain and stay in being.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:23 am ...life strives to avoid pain and stay in being.

Except when it doesn't.

There are lots of goals for which people will endure pain, and even occasion pain upon themselves. Athletic training, childbirth, sacrificial soldiering, mountain climbing, donating a kidney...

And some would even say that those who choose these pain-filled activities are living a fuller, richer life than those who simply avoid pain. The martyr might have more meaning in his life than does hedonist or the couch potato. Many people think so.

Things are more complicated than "pain = bad."

[/quote]
Except when it doesn't.

There are lots of goals for which people will endure pain, and even occasion pain upon themselves. Athletic training, childbirth, sacrificial soldiering, mountain climbing, donating a kidney...
And some would even say that those who choose these pain-filled activities are living a fuller, richer life than those who simply avoid pain. The martyr might have more meaning in his life than does hedonist or the couch potato. Many people think so.
Things are more complicated than "pain = bad."
[/quote]

Immanual,

I agree this is most often done by the more intelligent of our species, it is a positive approach to life in overriding somewhat the limitations of the fear of death and pain avoidance. Intelligent in that the subject generally has a good understanding of what life is about and develops an attitude to get the most out of life. This is by no means foolish behavior, for the individual generally appreciates the dangers and pain involved in accomplishing their desired goal, it is an educated risk and as is often said life without risk is no life at all. This attitude however is not common to the bulk of humanity and I believe humanity is the poorer for it. We generally stand in awe of these people even if more often than the general public they die young to their endeavors, still admired however for having died doing what they loved. These people generally stand out for us as remarkable individuals and are generally accomplished in life. This, however, is somewhat unnatural to the basic sense of survival at all costs, number one priority for most people.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:48 pm

Age wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:05 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:30 pm
Who the hell is, "we?" Speak for yourself!

If those are ways you go about seeking to live happily, you don't deserve either life or happiness and will almost surely get what you deserve.

Every successful happy person I know achieved that state by seeking to be the best human being they could be, learning all they could possibly learn and working to achieve and be the best in all things both physical and intellectual never settling for less than the best they were capable of because they valued their life and their successful living of it above all things. They are happy because they know they are competent to live life successfully and that everything they enjoy they can enjoy without guilt or regret because they have achieved and earned it by their own effort.

Your view of life and success is a terribly evil one. The kind of things you describe the truly successful could never either desire or even think of doing. What kind of people do you have for friends?

How do you define the word 'successful' in relation to 'living life'?

If one is alive and thoroughly enjoying their life without regret or guilt they are living successfully.

LOL
LOL
LOL

So, if let us say the one called "hitler" was 'thoroughly enjoying their life', and 'enjoyed it more' by the MORE that were KILLED, and, had NO 'regret or guilt' AT ALL, because after all in their own view they were ACTUALLY doing the 'right' thing, then, to your "logic" they were 'living successfully', correct?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:48 pm But this is not a definition.

So, WHY do you NOT just 'define' what you are saying and CLAIMING here?

Are you ABLE to 'define' and/or CLARIFY what you talk about and CLAIM is true?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:48 pm Every individual is different

OBVIOUSLY.

And, the very REASON WHY is ALSO OBVIOUS. That is; when, and if, one LOOKS AT 'things' PROPERLY and CORRECTLY.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:48 pm and what will fulfill any individual will be different.

So, what you CLAIM is a 'successful life' is NOT necessarily a 'successful life' AT ALL to "another", correct?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:48 pm An individual life is successful when that individual understands their own potential and achieves all they can as a human being (virtue) without wasting their ability and resources on the temporary and self-destructive (vice).

I asked you, 'How do you define the word 'successful' in relation to 'living life'?' If you do NOT want to answer, define and/or CLARIFY 'this', then so be it.

But now, 'Who are 'you' to TELL "others" how their OWN 'individual life' is successful or NOT?'

So, according to your own "logic" here, if and when one 'understands' that their own potential is to live as a nine year old and they achieve this even at over the age of eighty years old, then to you is this being 'successful', for them?

If no, then WHY NOT?

Also, what does, " achieve all an individual can as a 'human being' ", even mean, to you, EXACTLY?

And, what is 'virtue' AND 'vice', to you, EXACTLY?

And, what those two 'things' ARE, to you, what they ARE to EVERY one "else"?

If no, then WHICH version or definition of 'virtue' and 'vice' is the one that IS true, right, AND correct?

Is SEEING, and JUDGING, "others" as being LESS THAN or MORE THAN 'you' living a "successful life", to you?

Also, what is your OWN 'potential', EXACTLY?

Also, 'you' WASTING your ABILITY and RESOURCES on the temporary AND self-destructive vices that you are COMMITTING or DOING can be CLEARLY SEEN here.

So, WHY do 'you' DO THIS?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:02 pm

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 am If happiness is not our goal, we will eliminate frustration, depression, anxiety, and all those emotional problems associated with trying and failing to be happy.

Happiness comes from the word "hap," as in "happening" and "happenstance." "Hap" was the title of one of Thomas Hardy's poems, in fact, in which he meditates on the meaning of "hap."

"Hap" is "chance." Or, if you prefer, it's "luck-of-the-draw," or just "luck." It's what you may get if you're fortunate, but cannot be guaranteed by any means.

The Declaration of Independence only promises citizens a right to "the pursuit of happiness," and does not even try to promise them happiness, because it cannot. Nobody can.

"Happiness" itself cannot be a goal, because there are no reliable or certain means to produce it, and no way to guarantee it. It mayhap, it may not.

LOL Here is a great example of just how LITTLE the ones living in the days when this was being written REALLY KNEW.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:02 pm All one can end up doing is pursuing a feeling, a belief of what MAY produce happiness. But human beings are so often wrong about what will lead to actual happiness that their failure has become a cliche.

BELIEVING in 'things' that are SO OBVIOUSLY False, Wrong, AND Incorrect, like, for example; When 'you' DIE you will meet One who will JUDGE 'you', and then decide if 'you' live in eternal "hell" or "heaven" is a PRIME EXAMPLE of when 'you', human beings, are SO OFTEN SO Wrong about what will lead to 'your' ACTUAL happiness.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:02 pm If even the best circumstances had any promise for happiness, Hollywood, not Disney, should be "the happiest place on earth."

LOL This coming from one who has been TOLD of, and BELIEVES in, the 'promise of happiness' for just BELIEVING some 'things' are true.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:23 am To pursue happiness is not to be pursuing pain. Happiness involves a mirad of pleasures, none of which are experienced in intense pain. Pleasure is life fortifying. increases vitality, well pain diminishes and undermines lifes processes of staying in being. We pursue happiness/pleaure because life strives to avoid pain and stay in being.

What is this 'life' 'thing', which you CLAIM here "strives to avoid pain and stay in being".

What you CLAIM here implies that 'life', itself, can feel pain, correct?

And, who and/or what is the 'we', which pursues 'things' because 'life' strives for 'things'?

Jori wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:35 amWhy pursue happiness?

Whose happiness?

What is this 'life' 'thing', which you CLAIM here "strives to avoid pain and stay in being".
What you CLAIM here implies that 'life', itself, can feel pain, correct?
And, who and/or what is the 'we', which pursues 'things' because 'life' strives for 'things'?
[/quote]

Age,

That which strives to avoid pain and stay in being is life itself, or if you identify better with, the essence common to all life.
Yes, all life I believe can experience pain, though if one is sold on the idea that only organisms with complex nervous systems can feel pain then we have a disagreement.
I speak here of all life, all organisms, if you are not aware that life desires to stay in being, example have an innate fear of death, I should like to hear your argument.