Philosophy Now Forum

I find myself forgetting many things, places I've been, things I've done, people I've known. What happens when I completely forget everything? What happens when I die? If there is being after death, then what could/would it be like without any memories or sensory experience?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 am I find myself forgetting many things, places I've been, things I've done, people I've known. What happens when I completely forget everything? What happens when I die? If there is being after death, then what could/would it be like without any memories or sensory experience?

What makes you think there's nothing after death, Gary?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:47 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 am I find myself forgetting many things, places I've been, things I've done, people I've known. What happens when I completely forget everything? What happens when I die? If there is being after death, then what could/would it be like without any memories or sensory experience?

What makes you think there's nothing after death, Gary?

What do you mean when you say I think there's "nothing after death"?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:47 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 am I find myself forgetting many things, places I've been, things I've done, people I've known. What happens when I completely forget everything? What happens when I die? If there is being after death, then what could/would it be like without any memories or sensory experience?

What makes you think there's nothing after death, Gary?

What do you mean when you say I think there's "nothing after death"?

Well, this "no memories or sensory experience" thing...how do you get that idea? What assures you that what the Bible says cannot possibly be true; that there is a life after this one, to which this one is the merest prelude?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:18 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:47 am
What makes you think there's nothing after death, Gary?

What do you mean when you say I think there's "nothing after death"?

Well, this "no memories or sensory experience" thing...how do you get that idea? What assures you that what the Bible says cannot possibly be true; that there is a life after this one, to which this one is the merest prelude?

I don't know what the Bible says with respect to an afterlife, so I wasn't aware that I was contradicting what the Bible assures me of. It just seems to me to be the case that memory is not permanent as evidenced by people who reach very old age and have severe memory deficits and that the senses are fed by what eyes, ears, etc take in and if we don't have eyes, ears, etc. then we won't be seeing or hearing anything.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:18 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:33 pm

What do you mean when you say I think there's "nothing after death"?

Well, this "no memories or sensory experience" thing...how do you get that idea? What assures you that what the Bible says cannot possibly be true; that there is a life after this one, to which this one is the merest prelude?

I don't know what the Bible says with respect to an afterlife, so I wasn't aware that I was contradicting what the Bible assures me of. It just seems to me to be the case that memory is not permanent as evidenced by people who reach very old age and have severe memory deficits and that the senses are fed by what eyes, ears, etc take in and if we don't have eyes, ears, etc. then we won't be seeing or hearing anything.

Well, the Bible says God's memory is very, very good.

And ours may be a good deal better than you might imagine. That's because there seems to be a big difference between the memories we can access and the memories we actually have. Neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield, for example, has documented how certain neurostimulations can bring back parts of memory that patients have totally lost consciousness of, and with absolutely sterling clarity, as if they had just experience them again. That's remarkable, if true.

Whether in our own brains or elsewhere, In any case, the records are kept. The Bible uses the metaphor of "books." As John writes in Revelation 20:12.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:18 pm
Well, this "no memories or sensory experience" thing...how do you get that idea? What assures you that what the Bible says cannot possibly be true; that there is a life after this one, to which this one is the merest prelude?

I don't know what the Bible says with respect to an afterlife, so I wasn't aware that I was contradicting what the Bible assures me of. It just seems to me to be the case that memory is not permanent as evidenced by people who reach very old age and have severe memory deficits and that the senses are fed by what eyes, ears, etc take in and if we don't have eyes, ears, etc. then we won't be seeing or hearing anything.

Well, the Bible says God's memory is very, very good.

And ours may be a good deal better than you might imagine. That's because there seems to be a big difference between the memories we can access and the memories we actually have. Neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield, for example, has documented how certain neurostimulations can bring back parts of memory that patients have totally lost consciousness of, and with absolutely sterling clarity, as if they had just experience them again. That's remarkable, if true.

Whether in our own brains or elsewhere, In any case, the records are kept. The Bible uses the metaphor of "books." As John writes in Revelation 20:12.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

Well, to be fair, it could have been a lucid dream or episode of psychosis he had. Thrones, books, and such were the highest technology of the time and they couldn't have imagined what we have or see in the world today. If there is an afterlife, I'm sure it doesn't use books or thrones to administrate things, that would be kind of primitive if God used those things, don't you think. Since he saw books and thrones I would venture to guess that he didn't really see the afterlife or whatever. My guess is that it was some sort of illusion or psychosis or perhaps it was entirely metaphorical to a real-life experience. I mean, I've had some pretty weird psychoses myself and if it weren't for modern medicine, I'd be running around today in an almost permanent state of psychosis probably. Maybe John was a reasonably functional schizophrenic. Charles Manson thought he was some kind of prophet or something too. Manson was relatively able to function in the world around him.

I don't deny there is a God or afterlife, but I do question whether the Bible is a reliable source on God's will or whatever. Or if John did see the afterlife, then perhaps "book" was the closest thing he could use to describe his experience. But I'm pretty skeptical that there are books or thrones in an "afterlife" that follows our material decay and end.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 am I find myself forgetting many things, places I've been, things I've done, people I've known. What happens when I completely forget everything?

'you' completely forget EVERY thing.

What else were 'you' EXPECTING could happen?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 am What happens when I die?

Because of who and what 'you' ARE EXACTLY 'you' do NOT 'die'.

And, NEITHER does thee 'I'.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 am If there is being after death, then what could/would it be like without any memories or sensory experience?

WHEN 'you', human beings, LEARN and UNDERSTAND WHY 'you' become SO 'self-focused' AND 'self-centered', then 'you' will SEE the SELFISHNESS of these types of questions.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:18 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:47 am
What makes you think there's nothing after death, Gary?

What do you mean when you say I think there's "nothing after death"?

Well, this "no memories or sensory experience" thing...how do you get that idea? What assures you that what the Bible says cannot possibly be true; that there is a life after this one, to which this one is the merest prelude?

Here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of 'SELFISHNESS', itself, at its BEST.

A LOT of what "immanuel can" expresses are PRIME EXAMPLES of 'selfishness', in its HIGHEST FORM.

ALSO, the INTERPRETATION of 'life after this one', which "immanuel can" is alluding to here is just ABSOLUTELY Wrong AND Incorrect. And, the reason this one has this Wrong AND Incorrect INTERPRETATION because of the WHY it was abused and taught to BELIEVE that the bible talks about and refers to 'you', human beings, INDIVIDUALLY.

By the way, ALL-OF-THIS can be and WILL BE Corrected, SOON ENOUGH.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:18 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:33 pm

What do you mean when you say I think there's "nothing after death"?

Well, this "no memories or sensory experience" thing...how do you get that idea? What assures you that what the Bible says cannot possibly be true; that there is a life after this one, to which this one is the merest prelude?

I don't know what the Bible says with respect to an afterlife, so I wasn't aware that I was contradicting what the Bible assures me of.

You were NOT 'contradicting' here what is written in the bible. You were just "contradicting" "immanuel can's" VERY False, Wrong, AND Incorrect version and INTERPRETATION of what is written in the bible.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:31 am It just seems to me to be the case that memory is not permanent as evidenced by people who reach very old age and have severe memory deficits and that the senses are fed by what eyes, ears, etc take in and if we don't have eyes, ears, etc. then we won't be seeing or hearing anything.

VERY, VERY True.

It is AMAZING that MORE of 'you', adult human beings, had NOT worked this out PREVIOUSLY, before this was being written.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:18 pm
Well, this "no memories or sensory experience" thing...how do you get that idea? What assures you that what the Bible says cannot possibly be true; that there is a life after this one, to which this one is the merest prelude?

I don't know what the Bible says with respect to an afterlife, so I wasn't aware that I was contradicting what the Bible assures me of. It just seems to me to be the case that memory is not permanent as evidenced by people who reach very old age and have severe memory deficits and that the senses are fed by what eyes, ears, etc take in and if we don't have eyes, ears, etc. then we won't be seeing or hearing anything.

Well, the Bible says God's memory is very, very good.

And, this is ONLY because God/thee Mind KNOWS EVERY thing, ALWAYS.

And, the 'bible', itself, does NOT say ANY thing. There are, however, words written in varying DIFFERENT books known as 'the bible', which, by the way, were OBVIOUSLY written through the hands of 'you', human beings. Who, incidentally, have a HUGE ISSUE with MISINTERPRETING 'things' that have been passed on and relayed to you.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm And ours may be a good deal better than you might imagine.

What "gary childress" was OBVIOUSLY just POINTING TO and referring to were human beings WITH 'dementia'. But, PLEASE correct me if I am at all Wrong here "gary childress".

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm That's because there seems to be a big difference between the memories we can access and the memories we actually have. Neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield, for example, has documented how certain neurostimulations can bring back parts of memory that patients have totally lost consciousness of, and with absolutely sterling clarity, as if they had just experience them again. That's remarkable, if true.

If you think or believe so, but how is this going to apply to what "gary childress" is talking about in relation to WHEN the human body STOPS functioning, that is; stops breathing and pumping blood, or what is sometimes referred to as 'died' or 'death'?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm Whether in our own brains or elsewhere, In any case, the records are kept. The Bible uses the metaphor of "books." As John writes in Revelation 20:12.

So what?

Does this relate to ANY thing here?

If yes, then 'what', EXACTLY?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

WHEN, and IF, you EVER learn and UNDERSTAND what the words, 'The book of life', is talking about and referring to EXACTLY', then you will be MUCH CLOSER than you are here now.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:34 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:14 pm

I don't know what the Bible says with respect to an afterlife, so I wasn't aware that I was contradicting what the Bible assures me of. It just seems to me to be the case that memory is not permanent as evidenced by people who reach very old age and have severe memory deficits and that the senses are fed by what eyes, ears, etc take in and if we don't have eyes, ears, etc. then we won't be seeing or hearing anything.

Well, the Bible says God's memory is very, very good.

And ours may be a good deal better than you might imagine. That's because there seems to be a big difference between the memories we can access and the memories we actually have. Neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield, for example, has documented how certain neurostimulations can bring back parts of memory that patients have totally lost consciousness of, and with absolutely sterling clarity, as if they had just experience them again. That's remarkable, if true.

Whether in our own brains or elsewhere, In any case, the records are kept. The Bible uses the metaphor of "books." As John writes in Revelation 20:12.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

Well, to be fair, it could have been a lucid dream or episode of psychosis he had. Thrones, books, and such were the highest technology of the time and they couldn't have imagined what we have or see in the world today. If there is an afterlife, I'm sure it doesn't use books or thrones to administrate things, that would be kind of primitive if God used those things, don't you think.

The word 'afterlife' refers to what IS POSSIBLE, and what will ACTUALLY OCCUR. The 'afterlife' does NOT refer to ANY thing 'you', human beings, could IMAGINE is true. And, the 'afterlife' has NEVER referred to ANY one 'you', INDIVIDUALLY, NOR to ANY one of 'you' and your OWN, individual, lives.

'you' have ONLY INTERPRETED this Wrong version because of your individual self-IMPORTANCE.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm Since he saw books and thrones I would venture to guess that he didn't really see the afterlife or whatever. My guess is that it was some sort of illusion or psychosis or perhaps it was entirely metaphorical to a real-life experience. I mean, I've had some pretty weird psychoses myself and if it weren't for modern medicine, I'd be running around today in an almost permanent state of psychosis probably. Maybe John was a reasonably functional schizophrenic. Charles Manson thought he was some kind of prophet or something too. Manson was relatively able to function in the world around him.

I don't deny there is a God or afterlife, but I do question whether the Bible is a reliable source on God's will or whatever.

The bible, EXACTLY like the koran, and EXACTLY like some other books are a GREAT SOURCE on 'things'.

It was just very unfortunate that 'you', adult human beings, had MISINTERPRETED 'things' SO MUCH that I LOT of the DISTORTIONS 'you' have made has taken thousands of years to STRAIGHTEN OUT, so that they could FINALLY be SEEN CLEARLY for what they REALLY once ACTUALLY MEANT and REFERRED TO.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm Or if John did see the afterlife, then perhaps "book" was the closest thing he could use to describe his experience. But I'm pretty skeptical that there are books or thrones in an "afterlife" that follows our material decay and end.

'Thrones' just refers to sitting UP HIGHER, with thee True, Right, AND Correct 'knowledge'. And, 'books' just refers to how ALL 'knowledge' can be gathered together and held or stored for ALL to come and SEE, or bear witness to.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:34 am Well, to be fair, it could have been a lucid dream or episode of psychosis he had. Thrones, books, and such were the highest technology of the time and they couldn't have imagined what we have or see in the world today. If there is an afterlife, I'm sure it doesn't use books or thrones to administrate things, that would be kind of primitive if God used those things, don't you think.

Sure.

But let's imagine John's situation: you get a vision of things people haven't even seen yet, and can't imagine. How do you convey it in such a way that for the next 2000 years, people are going to be able to get some meaning from it, even though you can't really fully explain?

Wouldn't you use metaphors from what people DID know, to try to explain to them the kinds of things the cannot even imagine? I think that's pretty much all you could do. So, for example, if you, like John, foresaw a worldwide credit system, you couldn't say to an an ancient audience, "and one day there will be things called computers and the internet, and everybody will use them." People would never have understood that. So you put it in terms that they can grasp, and you write something like that nobody can buy or sell without a "number." Numbers are things the ancient world DID have. And it awaits the future until people can really tell what that implies.

But as time went along, more and more of the metaphorical would be likely to be replaced by literal understanding, if what you were saying was the truth. So it might have been impossible, in, say, 70 AD, for people to imagine a worldwide war or a global plague...you might have had to try to express it in metaphorical language; but how hard is it for us to do that today?

And you sense this, I guess. For you write,

...if John did see the afterlife, then perhaps "book" was the closest thing he could use to describe his experience.

Well, and the closest thing to ANY experience that was possible in John's day. Even books were comparatively new and rare technology in those days. Most of what was available were loose manuscripts, tablets and scrolls. The idea of a bound volume was yet to happen, perhaps the most noteworthy exception being Torah itself. But the concept "book" as you and I know it, was actually very new.

Since he saw books and thrones I would venture to guess that he didn't really see the afterlife or whatever.

Metaphorically, "throne" speaks of dominion, rule, power. And metaphorically, "book" speaks of memory, record, fact. And that's because once you put ink to paper, it does not morph. It sits where you put it. Naturally, that makes it a metaphor for a permanent record.

So these things are still very much with us. Not the mere metaphor, but the actuality they represent.

My guess is that it was some sort of illusion or psychosis or perhaps it was entirely metaphorical to a real-life experience.

People have suggested that, if for no other reason than that the depicted scence in John's vision seem to us so foreign and odd. The problem is that everything John spoke of keeps coming true. And that doesn't happen with mere illusions, dreams or psychoses. In fact, that's how we tell a prophecy from a mere delusion.

But I'm pretty skeptical that there are books or thrones in an "afterlife" that follows our material decay and end.

That's because death is ordinarily unidirectional. Not having been through such an experience, we're in a poor position even to imagine what may come.

But our lack of imagination hardly constitutes an impediment to what God says will happen. So we have to decide Whom to believe.

Age wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:50 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:14 pm
I don't know what the Bible says with respect to an afterlife, so I wasn't aware that I was contradicting what the Bible assures me of. It just seems to me to be the case that memory is not permanent as evidenced by people who reach very old age and have severe memory deficits and that the senses are fed by what eyes, ears, etc take in and if we don't have eyes, ears, etc. then we won't be seeing or hearing anything.

Well, the Bible says God's memory is very, very good.

And, this is ONLY because God/thee Mind KNOWS EVERY thing, ALWAYS.

And, the 'bible', itself, does NOT say ANY thing. There are, however, words written in varying DIFFERENT books known as 'the bible', which, by the way, were OBVIOUSLY written through the hands of 'you', human beings. Who, incidentally, have a HUGE ISSUE with MISINTERPRETING 'things' that have been passed on and relayed to you.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:30 pm And ours may be a good deal better than you might imagine.

What "gary childress" was OBVIOUSLY just POINTING TO and referring to were human beings WITH 'dementia'. But, PLEASE correct me if I am at all Wrong here "gary childress".

You are correct, Age. I am referring to things like dementia and the physical deterioration of the brain and body.

I believe in the eternal now, so I believe there is life after death, but not life as we know it as differentiated persons. I can imagine that the eternal now contains also differentiated experiences like what we have in this life, but how the switch-over from eternal now to relative time might happen is beyond my imagination.

One of the most famous arguments about the nature of time in modern philosophy is presented in "The Unreality of Time" by J. M. E. McTaggart.[17] It argues that time is an illusion. McTaggart argued that the description of events as existing in absolute time is self-contradictory, because the events have to have properties about being in the past and in the future, which are incompatible with each other. McTaggart viewed this as a contradiction in the concept of time itself, and concluded that reality is non-temporal. He called this concept the B-theory of time.[4]

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/