Philosophy Now Forum

The following readers’ answers to this central philosophical question each win a random book.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/65/How_Are_The_Mind_And_Brain_Related

Philosophy Now wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:25 pm The following readers’ answers to this central philosophical question each win a random book.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/65/How ... in_Related

Andrew Hyams from Isleworth, London, wrote:

"...Now, we can say that the apparent external world must either be a) physical, b) mental with my own mind as the source, or c) mental with another mind as the source (God?). Yet b) and c) cannot be the case, because if a mind was the source of the world, other minds could not exist within it, as minds can not overlap and remain independent, separate minds...."

I suggest that the above is fundamentally wrong.

And that's because if me and Berkeley are correct, and the universe truly is the mind of God, then our bodies and brains are created from God's own personal mental holography, and represent the means by which our own minds were awakened into existence.

In which case, our completely separate and autonomous minds do indeed exist within the inner dimension of God's mind, while our physical bodies and brains...

(which, again, are created from God's extremely advanced and highly ordered mental imaging substances)

...simply act as a temporary "interface" between our minds and the mind of God - an interface that allows us to literally peer outward from the inner dimension of our own minds and right into the inner dimension of God's mind (the universe) through five sensory "windows."

I explain how such could be the case in a 7.5 minute excerpt from one of my video lectures which aired for many years on public access television in Grand Rapids, Michigan, back in the 90s.

Here's a link to it on YouTube: https://youtu.be/bVbpHy4nncA
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seeds wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:00 pm And that's because
if me and Berkeley are correct, and the universe truly is the mind of God,
then our bodies and brains are created from God's own personal mental holography, and represent the means by which our own minds were awakened into existence.

Your above is too presumptuous.
You simply assumes 'God exists as real' without any justifications nor proofs [non-mathematical] then jumps into your conditional premise 'the universe truly is the mind of God.'

Btw, where is your argument and justification which proves 'God exists as real'?
You are merely personally and subjectively convinced 'God exists as real' based a personal epiphanic experience with is very subjective [to me is merely a psychological experience shared by many others in various manners].

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am ...where is your argument and justification which proves 'God exists as real'?

First of all, Veritas, you could put this matter to rest - once and for all - if you simply provided proof as to how the universe came about without any input or guidance from something intelligent.

In other words, let's hear your argument and justification that proves that the unfathomable order implicit in the construction of this random scene...



...and this random scene...



...is the result of the blind and mindless stumbling's of "chance."

And secondly, how many times, and in how many different ways do I have to point out that for the sake of maintaining the functionality of this "womb-like" phenomenon that we call a universe,...

...that humans (in general) cannot be allowed to have irrefutable proof of the existence of the owner of the womb (God) and of the fact that life continues on in a higher context of reality after death?

And why is that?

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but the reason is that if everyone knew (beyond any doubt whatsoever) that death was nothing more than a "final contraction and push" that will "deliver" their true and eternal form (the same form as God) into a higher context of reality,...

(indeed, a higher context of reality that makes our present context seem like a hell in comparison)

...then what do you suppose humans would do? - Especially if they knew that there would be no negative consequences or punishment if they opted to quickly and painlessly enter that higher context of reality at any time they wished?

Well, just in case there's any doubt, humans long ago would have chosen the obvious, and none of the 7.8 billion of us alive today would have ever come into existence due to the soul-generating "machinery" of human bodies and brains being wiped-out from the start.

Now of course that doesn't "prove" anything, but it at least offers a reasonable premise as to why the irrefutable proof of there being a Creator and, especially, an afterlife, must be kept hidden from us.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am You are merely personally and subjectively convinced 'God exists as real' based a personal epiphanic experience...

Right.

And trust me, Veritas, if you would have had the same "epiphanic experience" as me,...

(which, as crazy as this may sound, was a modern-day version of the alleged "burning bush" occurrence)

...then you too would be "personally and subjectively convinced that God exists as real."

And that's why it is so incredibly narrow-minded of you to assume that just because you personally have never experienced any such (God-revealing) epiphanies, that no one else has.

So, how about you pull your head out of the darkness of Kant's colon and have a go at waking up to the realization that other humans might just happen to know something that you don't know.
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am ...where is your argument and justification which proves 'God exists as real'?

First of all, Veritas, you could put this matter to rest - once and for all - if you simply provided proof as to how the universe came about without any input or guidance from something intelligent.

In other words, let's hear your argument and justification that proves that the unfathomable order implicit in the construction of this random scene...

As I had argued you are relying on the bottom-up approach with a hasty generalization of an assumption there is a finite beginning [which is illusory.]
Thus your basic premise is an illusion as such your insistence on its conclusion is delusional.

The be intellectual honest with integrity, the onus is on you to provide the proof "the universe came about with inputs or guidance from something intelligent" and not
"...is the result of the blind and mindless stumbling's of "chance.""

My approach is top-down which is, I start from what is empirically observable of the known and possible to be known reality as portrayed in the two images you linked.

• https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2d/4a/71/2d4a ... uttles.jpg
  
  ...and this random scene...
  
  https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/pi ... vKVrvIMJI=

Based on the empirical evidence the expansion and inflation of the universe [reality] it is inferred 'top-down' to the Big Bang but only up to t[61st second] [evidence inferred phenomena] but not to t0 [a speculated noumena] a fixed starting point in time.

The sunrise is a natural phenomena and any sense of 'awe' is merely a psychological state.

Thus what I have provided is very valid and sound arguments.

And secondly, how many times, and in how many different ways do I have to point out that for the sake of maintaining the functionality of this "womb-like" phenomenon that we call a universe,...

...that humans (in general) cannot be allowed to have irrefutable proof of the existence of the owner of the womb (God) and of the fact that life continues on in a higher context of reality after death?

And why is that?

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but the reason is that if everyone knew (beyond any doubt whatsoever) that death was nothing more than a "final contraction and push" that will "deliver" their true and eternal form (the same form as God) into a higher context of reality,...

(indeed, a higher context of reality that makes our present context seem like a hell in comparison)

...then what do you suppose humans would do? - Especially if they knew that there would be no negative consequences or punishment if they opted to quickly and painlessly enter that higher context of reality at any time they wished?

Well, just in case there's any doubt, humans long ago would have chosen the obvious, and none of the 7.8 billion of us alive today would have ever come into existence due to the soul-generating "machinery" of human bodies and brains being wiped-out from the start.

Now of course that doesn't "prove" anything, but it at least offers a reasonable premise as to why the irrefutable proof of there being a Creator and, especially, an afterlife, must be kept hidden from us.

All your above blabbering is a due to a psychological state driven by a cognitive dissonance state to seek consonance.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am You are merely personally and subjectively convinced 'God exists as real' based a personal epiphanic experience...

Right.

And trust me, Veritas, if you would have had the same "epiphanic experience" as me,...

(which, as crazy as this may sound, was a modern-day version of the alleged "burning bush" occurrence)

...then you too would be "personally and subjectively convinced that God exists as real."

And that's why it is so incredibly narrow-minded of you to assume that just because you personally have never experienced any such (God-revealing) epiphanies, that no one else has.
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As I had stated I have had experienced "epiphanic experiences" but there is no way it can be compared to others.

Point is I have done extensive research on "epiphanic experiences" and they arise from all sorts of sources, e.g. mental illness, brain damage, drugs, stress, hallucinogens, out of the blue, meditation, various spiritual practices, etc.

If yours is not from long term meditation [mine], then it is more likely to arise from some sort of mental illness [perhaps a mild one] like temporal epilepsy, electromagnetic triggers, e.g.
Ramachandran, the Temporal Lobes and God
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg&t=1s
You cannot be certain your "epiphanic experiences" did not arise from one of the above listed reasons.

So, how about you pull your head out of the darkness of Kant's colon and have a go at waking up to the realization that other humans might just happen to know something that you don't know.

This merely expose the subliminal [inferiority complex] lack of rational competence and intellectual integrity within you.
Since it is so natural and spontaneous from you, no point me complaining about except to highlight what is really going on within your psyche.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:00 pm And that's because
if me and Berkeley are correct, and the universe truly is the mind of God,
then our bodies and brains are created from God's own personal mental holography, and represent the means by which our own minds were awakened into existence.

Your above is too presumptuous.
You simply assumes 'God exists as real' without any justifications nor proofs [non-mathematical] then jumps into your conditional premise 'the universe truly is the mind of God.'

'you', "veritas aequitas", obviously, ASSUME 'God does not exist as real' without ANY, ACTUAL, justifications NOR proofs [of ANY sort], and 'you' have JUMPED to MANY False, Wrong, AND Incorrect conclusions.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am Btw, where is your argument and justification which proves 'God exists as real'?

By the way, "veritas aequitas" you have NOT YET, in this forum anyway, presented a sound and valid argument that 'God does not exist as real'. Although you BELIEVE, wholeheartedly, otherwise.

As can be VERY EASILY and VERY SIMPLY PROVED True.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am You are merely personally and subjectively convinced 'God exists as real' based a personal epiphanic experience with is very subjective [to me is merely a psychological experience shared by many others in various manners].

'you', "veritas aequitas", are merely personally and subjectively convinced 'God does not exist as real' based a personal epiphanic experience with is very subjective [to me is merely a psychological experience shared by many others in various manners].

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am ...where is your argument and justification which proves 'God exists as real'?

First of all, Veritas, you could put this matter to rest - once and for all - if you simply provided proof as to how the universe came about without any input or guidance from something intelligent.

This can be VERY EASILY and VERY SIMPLY EXPLAINED and UNDERSTOOD.

But 'you' do NOT YET ANYWAY appear to be READY to HEAR THIS.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm In other words, let's hear your argument and justification that proves that the unfathomable order implicit in the construction of this random scene...



...and this random scene...

1. The construction of that seemingly random, or seemingly intentional scene, is NOT 'unfathomable' AT ALL. This is because the cause of that scene, and how it was constructed, has ALREADY been WORKED OUT, and FULLY UNDERSTOOD.

2. Sound and valid arguments and justifications are NOT heard, by those who BELIEVE otherwise. Just like those with BELIEFS can form "arguments" and "justifications" for 'that', which is absolutely False, Wrong, and Incorrect, which they then use to back up and support what is essentially absolutely or partly False, Wrong, and Incorrect.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:27 am ...is the result of the blind and mindless stumbling's of "chance."

If you are going to call them 'random' scenes, then even you will have to ADMIT and ACCEPT that those scenes came by 'chance'.

Also, how they 'came by chance' can be VERY EASILY and VERY SIMPLE PROVED True.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:27 am And secondly, how many times, and in how many different ways do I have to point out that for the sake of maintaining the functionality of this "womb-like" phenomenon that we call a universe,...

WHY, EXACTLY, would you call thee Universe, Itself, "womb-like"?

The word 'womb' has a connotation of evolving or creating 'within' the womb, and then being born 'outside of' or 'external to' the womb. Which is OBVIOUSLY an IMPOSSIBILITY.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:27 am ..that humans (in general) cannot be allowed to have irrefutable proof of the existence of the owner of the womb (God) and of the fact that life continues on in a higher context of reality after death?

And why is that?

Because it is just NOT True.

BUT 'you' are FREE to BELIEVE absolutely ANY thing you want.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:27 am Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but the reason is that if everyone knew (beyond any doubt whatsoever) that death was nothing more than a "final contraction and push" that will "deliver" their true and eternal form (the same form as God) into a higher context of reality,...

EXACTLY HOW could there be a "higher context" of thee One and ONLY Reality, which 'you' are ALL residing in HERE-NOW?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:27 am (indeed, a higher context of reality that makes our present context seem like a hell in comparison)

And, WHERE could this "higher context" of 'reality' BE, EXACTLY?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:27 am ...then what do you suppose humans would do? - Especially if they knew that there would be no negative consequences or punishment if they opted to quickly and painlessly enter that higher context of reality at any time they wished?

WHERE do these PRESUMPTIONS come from, EXACTLY?

Well, just in case there's any doubt, humans long ago would have chosen the obvious, and none of the 7.8 billion of us alive today would have ever come into existence due to the soul-generating "machinery" of human bodies and brains being wiped-out from the start.

Now of course that doesn't "prove" anything, but it at least offers a reasonable premise as to why the irrefutable proof of there being a Creator and, especially, an afterlife, must be kept hidden from us.[/quote]

How, EXACTLY, are they, SUPPOSEDLY, "kept hidden from you" if you are here talking about them?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:27 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:27 am You are merely personally and subjectively convinced 'God exists as real' based a personal epiphanic experience...

Right.

And trust me, Veritas, if you would have had the same "epiphanic experience" as me,...

(which, as crazy as this may sound, was a modern-day version of the alleged "burning bush" occurrence)

...then you too would be "personally and subjectively convinced that God exists as real."

And that's why it is so incredibly narrow-minded of you to assume that just because you personally have never experienced any such (God-revealing) epiphanies, that no one else has.

So, how about you pull your head out of the darkness of Kant's colon and have a go at waking up to the realization that other humans might just happen to know something that you don't know.
_______

Very True.

The, human, brain is visible matter, which contains the experiences of an individual human body. The human body then expresses thoughts contained within the brain through words, or language.

The, human, brain works exactly like a computer as it can only put out what has been put into it.

The invisible Mind, however, is completely different and works in a completely different way. The 'Mind' is just the word that refers to that part of human beings that allows them, collective, to be able to learn, understand, and reason ANY and EVERY thing.

It is the Mind that has and is allowing human beings to continually dream, envision, invent, design, and then create absolutely ANY and EVERY thing that human beings have hitherto, and will.

Thee Mind is thee Creator 'within', while the brain is the tool for storing and holding the information or knowledge to be able to create.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm First of all, Veritas, you could put this matter to rest - once and for all - if you simply provided proof as to how the universe came about ...

If you begin with a false premise (e.g. "the world came about,") you end with a false conclusion ("something had to cause it). Which is nonsense.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:26 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm First of all, Veritas, you could put this matter to rest - once and for all - if you simply provided proof as to how the universe came about ...

If you begin with a false premise (e.g. "the world came about,") you end with a false conclusion ("something had to cause it). Which is nonsense.

I apologize for constantly using the same imagery to make a point, however, how in the world is it a "false premise" to assume that this...



...somehow, and by some unknown means, "came about"?

Okay then, if you think that it's "nonsense" to believe that the universe had a "cause," then what is the alternative explanation for its existence?
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RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:26 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm First of all, Veritas, you could put this matter to rest - once and for all - if you simply provided proof as to how the universe came about ...

If you begin with a false premise (e.g. "the world came about,") you end with a false conclusion ("something had to cause it). Which is nonsense.

Very True.

Get rid of the ASSUMPTION that 'the world came about', with the connotation that 'the world was caused/created', then the nonsensical questions above, like; 'How did the Universe came about?' will NOT arise.

Thee Universe ALWAYS EXISTS. So, there was NO ACTUAL 'coming about', in the sense of BEGINNING, in relation to the Universe, Itself.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:26 pm If you begin with a false premise (e.g. "the world came about,")

So you don't accept the findings of mathematics, reason or cosmology, and believe the Universe is eternal? Interesting. But not a great starting point.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:45 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:26 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm First of all, Veritas, you could put this matter to rest - once and for all - if you simply provided proof as to how the universe came about ...

If you begin with a false premise (e.g. "the world came about,") you end with a false conclusion ("something had to cause it). Which is nonsense.

I apologize for constantly using the same imagery to make a point, however, how in the world is it a "false premise" to assume that this...



...somehow, and by some unknown means, "came about"?

Besides that little image is a completely and utterly Wrong interpretation of thee Universe, Itself, and therefore providing a MISLEADING conception, using that your OWN descriptive image as some 'thing' to make "some point", will OBVIOUSLY just cause a False conclusion that 'it' did 'come about', from some other 'thing'. And, to then ponder and ask "How did 'this' come about?" is just NONSENSICAL.

Also, what do you ASSUME the 'point' is that your OWN image here is 'making', EXACTLY?

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:45 pm Okay then, if you think that it's "nonsense" to believe that the universe had a "cause," then what is the alternative explanation for its existence?
_______

QUITE SIMPLY thee Universe, Itself, has ALWAYS been EXISTING.

Which, when LOOKED INTO FULLY, is thee ONLY True, Right, AND Correct CONCLUSION. This CONCLUSION IS IRREFUTABLE, whereas EVERY "conclusion" that the Universe 'came about' from some 'thing' ELSE, WILL just FALL to the wayside, as some say.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:14 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:26 pm If you begin with a false premise (e.g. "the world came about,")

So you don't accept the findings of mathematics, reason or cosmology, and believe the Universe is eternal? Interesting. But not a great starting point.

'mathematics', itself, does NOT 'find' ANY thing. People USE "mathematics" to "find" some of the preconceptions and/or beliefs, and/or to CONFIRM, some of their biases.

There is absolute NO 'reason' to ASSUME NOR BELIEVE the Universe, 'came about', from some 'thing' ELSE.

There is also NO 'reasoning' AT ALL that the Universe 'came about', from some 'thing' ELSE.

'cosmology' is just the name given to what 'human beings' do when so-called "studying". BUT, if ANY one is "studying" ANY thing that involves the 'origin' of the Universe, then what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is that they are STARTING with an ASSUMPTION and/or PRECONCEPTION that there WAS 'a beginning'. Which, as I have continually been POINTING OUT and SHOWING here is an EXTREMELY FOOLISH, STUPID, and ABSURD WAY when LOOKING FOR what thee ACTUAL Truth IS.

To LOOK FOR the 'origin' of the Universe one would HAVE TO FIRST HAVE some sort of ASSUMPTION that the Universe BEGAN. And, WHEN LOOKED INTO FULLY, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that the Universe BEGAN, LET ALONE ANY PROOF AT ALL.

So, I will, AGAIN, suggest to just LOOK AT what IS ACTUALLY True, INSTEAD of LOOKING FOR what COULD BE or MIGHT BE true.

The WORST 'starting point' 'you', adult human beings, CAN and DO use is your OWN ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEF of 'things'.

And, 'you', "immanuel can", is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just WHY BELIEFS are the WORST 'starting point'.

'you', BELIEVE, wholeheartedly that "God created everything", and so for as long as you have and HOLD this BELIEF, this is ONLY what you WILL SEE. So, you WILL continue to make the ABSURD, STUPID, and FOOLISH CLAIMS, which you DO make here.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:04 pm ...
And trust me, Veritas, if you would have had the same "epiphanic experience" as me,...

(which, as crazy as this may sound, was a modern-day version of the alleged "burning bush" occurrence)

...then you too would be "personally and subjectively convinced that God exists as real."

And that's why it is so incredibly narrow-minded of you to assume that just because you personally have never experienced any such (God-revealing) epiphanies, that no one else has.
_______

As I stated I have had my own "epiphanic experience" which initially I thought was special, unique and confined to 'a selected few' of humanity.
However I later discovered they are merely altered states of consciousness that occur within the human brain due to various psychological conditions of the individuals.

Have you exhausted the subject of altered states of consciousness?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_s ... sciousness
If you do extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned you will note whatever "epiphanic experiences" you have had experienced are merely psychological and they happened in your brain.

The impulse that drive you to think God as real behind all of reality is merely psychological as a consonance to soothe the inherent cognitive dissonance.