Philosophy Now Forum

The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

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Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.
P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.
P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.
P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.
P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.
C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity. Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.

Our choice.

RG1 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:32 pm The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

***************
Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.

Depends. This is a poor start for a logical discussion. Vaccinations by themselves prepare and protect the body from the disease the virus causes.

P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.

What is "immune people"? More vauge terminology. Vaccinations stimulate the immunes system to prepare for virus infections.

P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.

If, as you say the virus continues to mutate then we shall never achive herd immunity.

P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.

Maybe, maybe not. because of the vector of the disease and the infectiveness of the disease the likleyhood that we are going to ever stop this virus is highly unlikely. The viruses that cause COVID are akin to the common cold and are likley to become part of the new normal.

P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.

No one is effectively isolated from the virus at this time. The number of new infections each day prohibit any chance of the health systems coping with the new variant/

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:

SInce every single one of your premises are faulty, naive, or simplistic, there are no valid conclusions to be had.

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.

It is not possible to determine who is "immune", who will get mild disease and who will die.
But statistics have shown that vaccinations prevent serious illness and assist on the raod to heard immunity, and that masking can reduce the viral load, making it easier to achieve immunity when infected, and to avoid infection all together in some cases.
Vaccination contributes to herd immunity more effectively than not having vaccinations, since vaccinated people who become infected achieve immunity with no severe illness.

C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.

Wrong.
The new Omicron variation emerged from a population with very low vaccination rates.
The Delta came from unvaccinated people.
The best way to contribute to herd immunity is TO GET VACCINATED.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity.

We already are it is called a VACCINATION programme.

Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.

Yes. so shut the fuck up, put your needle shyness in your baby box and get yourself vaccinated.

Our choice.

Ever noticed how the REALLY deadly viruses, while still around, don't cause world wide pandemics? They don't get a chance to mutate because they are too deadly and make people too sick to spread it around to any great degree. Bubonic plague is still around (a bacteria), Ebola is still around. When humans are packed in together like sardines, with poor sanitation and general poor health then pretty much anything is going to be deadly to a lot of people.
To all those morons who sneer at the number of deaths from covid as 'piffling', this is because living conditions are much better than they were in 1918, health care is much better than it was in 1918, we know a lot more about viruses now than we did in 1918, medical science has advanced enormously since 1918, there were no vaccines in 1918, most of the those deaths were not from the actual virus but from secondary bacterial infections, before antibiotics......
Notice how it's in countries with very low vaccination rates where covid keeps mutating?

Covid is a 'perfect storm' for a pandemic. Not deadly enough to burn itself out, and easily transmittable because of the fact that it causes such mild symptoms in most people. I supposed the most cunning virus that really wanted to kill us would have a long incubation period where a person was infectious but symptomless, with a sudden onset of deadly symptoms and death.

Ironic that science and technology has given us wonderful tools to deal with a pandemic, yet science and technology has at the same time given us another kind of virus--the virus of misinformation that spreads amongst gullible morons faster than any virus in the 'real world' ever could...

Since everyone has their own opinion about the effectiveness of this or that …

… the fundamental issue is that you, under threat of penalty , must inject your body with a chemical in order to protect me. The justification for this is, Emergency!

- The end of the 3-year "emergency" is not in sight.
- Time will continue to ease the "emergency" into a new state of ... that's just how things are done around here.
- The end of Emergency Powers that suspend civil rights for non-compliance is not in sight.
- The justification for the degree of effectiveness of the response so far is being gauged by ... what could have otherwise happened.

*

How about if you, under threat of penalty, must eat what the government or employer tells you to eat ... in order to protect the planet, because of the "climate emergency."

Same principle.

Eventually we will achive herd immunity so that, just like the common cold from which the Corona virus is derived, only infects when it mutates.
This aim will be achived more quickly with vaccinations.
But we can also preserve the lives of vulnerable people in the meantime with hands, face, space precautions.
There are two routes to go down
1 RJG's idea of removing all protections
2 continuing to achieve herd immunity more slowly

1. This will cause the health services to crash from too many cases. They are already at breaking point on many places. Your plan would double the death rate and impose long term illness for millions.

2. By careful use of precautions the time line is extended so that more people can be treated and their lives preserved. Herd immunity is achieved with fewer death and fewer insances of long term illness.

Corona is, itself a mutation of the common cold. The new omicron is more infective and less damaging.
The mutation trajectory is likley to follow that direction with more infectiousness and less severity since such a mutation out competes more harmful strains BUT ONLY IF PEOPLE WITH SEVERE ILLNESS ISOLATE.
If you allow more dangerous strains to flourish as RJG suggests then it will be those strains that flourish.

Herd immunity will be achived with CORONA reverting to the common cold. This is best fascilitated by isolating harmful strains.

RG1 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:32 pm The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

***************
Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.
P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.
P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.
P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.
P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.
C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity. Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.

Our choice.

Herd immunity can NOT even stop the common cold, which is also a virus that may have crossed from birds to humans a couple of hundred years ago, or even far longer back.

Herd immunity is also NOT stopping the flu virus, which also can mutate.

So, vaccinating, unmasking, and moving about normally, or freely, has NOT stopped these other viruses, so WHY AGAIN do you say that vaccinating, unmasking, and moving about normally, or freely, will stop the corona virus?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:22 pm Eventually we will achieve herd immunity so that, just like the common cold from which the Corona virus is derived, only infects when it mutates.
This aim will be achieved more quickly with vaccinations.

Well, of course, if that's what you believe will work and it's what you would like, obviously, it ought to be forced on everyone else.

Or...

Since there are others who just happen not to contract any version of Covid no matter how much they are exposed to it, perhaps the best way to eliminate the so-called pandemic is to just let the virus kill all those who have no resistance to it, so the rest of humanity can get on with their life. Of course that would require all the world-savers to mind their own business which is just too much to ask.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:37 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:22 pm Eventually we will achieve herd immunity so that, just like the common cold from which the Corona virus is derived, only infects when it mutates.
This aim will be achieved more quickly with vaccinations.

Well, of course, if that's what you believe will work and it's what you would like, obviously, it ought to be forced on everyone else.

You see this is why you havn't got a fucking clue about philosophy.
This sort of idiotic strawman is why you are simply not suited for philosophical discussions.
Jog on!

This aim (population immunity) will be achieved more quickly with vaccinations.

not with current crop of jabs, no

ya know, there's another option midway between everybody lick toilet seats so we all get it and get thru it fastfastfast! and straightjacket the world!

public health folks -- insofar as they ought be doin' anything -- ought be clearing houses for clear info, and you, me, him, and her ought be left alone to decide to mask or not, to lockdown or not, to accept the jab or not

I personally see no evidence of a Coronapocalypse so: I ain't wearin' a a mask, not lockin' down, and ain't acceptin' the jab, and I don't care what edicts get handed down sayin' I must or will

you do you; I'll do me

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:23 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:37 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:22 pm Eventually we will achieve herd immunity so that, just like the common cold from which the Corona virus is derived, only infects when it mutates.
This aim will be achieved more quickly with vaccinations.

Well, of course, if that's what you believe will work and it's what you would like, obviously, it ought to be forced on everyone else.

You see this is why you havn't got a fucking clue about philosophy.
This sort of idiotic strawman is why you are simply not suited for philosophical discussions.
Jog on!

Discussions about diseases and vaccines are now what philosophy discusses? Who knew?

You do seem to have a problem with satire.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:39 pm

RG1 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:32 pm The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

***************
Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.
P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.
P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.
P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.
P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.
C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity. Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.

Our choice.

Herd immunity can NOT even stop the common cold, which is also a virus that may have crossed from birds to humans a couple of hundred years ago, or even far longer back.

But not many people are killed by the 'common cold' BECAUSE we have natural immunity to its effects. That's the difference. No immunity to the cold, and it will likely kill you, just as the common flu was so deadly to those with no natural immunity--like the people that the PC like to refer to as 'indigenous'.

RG1 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:32 pm At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity.

What does that even mean?

What do we need to do in order to start implementing herd immunity?
Why aren't we implementing it now?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:54 pm ya know, there's another option midway between everybody lick toilet seats so we all get it and get thru it fastfastfast! and straightjacket the world!

public health folks -- insofar as they ought be doin' anything -- ought be clearing houses for clear info, and you, me, him, and her ought be left alone to decide to mask or not, to lockdown or not, to accept the jab or not

So, if someone had a disease, which they KNEW could kill "others" by just normal breathing, then you would have NO issue AT ALL with that one not staying at home, walking in a store, for example, without a mask on, next to you and/or your family members, breathing on or next to them, and then either you or your family members getting sick and/or dying, correct?

Or am I reading what you wrote here WRONG?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:54 pm I personally see no evidence of a Coronapocalypse so: I ain't wearin' a a mask, not lockin' down, and ain't acceptin' the jab, and I don't care what edicts get handed down sayin' I must or will

And, you do NOT care if 'you' KILL someone "else" in the process, CORRECT?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:54 pm you do you; I'll do me

So much for "others" life, liberty, and property FREEDOMS 'you' go on about, when 'you' CLEARLY HAVE this NOT CARING for ANY one "else" ATTITUDE "henry quirk".

Can you REALLY STILL NOT, YET, SEE your very OWN CONTRADICTIONS in your CLAIMS?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:57 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:39 pm

RG1 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:32 pm The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

***************
Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.
P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.
P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.
P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.
P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.
C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity. Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.

Our choice.

Herd immunity can NOT even stop the common cold, which is also a virus that may have crossed from birds to humans a couple of hundred years ago, or even far longer back.

But not many people are killed by the 'common cold' BECAUSE we have natural immunity to its effects.

Human beings, OBVIOUSLY, did NOT have 'natural immunity' when that virus past, or jumped, from other animals to 'you', human being, animals.

'you', human beings, have ONLY evolved to have so-called "natural immunity" to its effects JUST LIKE 'you' WILL NATURALLY evolve to obtain and have 'natural immunity' to COrona VIrus Disease number 19.

And, ONCE AGAIN, I was NEVER EVEN thinking about 'you', human beings, being killed by COVID, in regards to 'herd immunity'. What I was ACTUALLY replying to was the CLAIM about 'herd immunity' would stop the 'continuation of mutations'. I was just POINTING OUT that 'herd immunity' has NOT EVEN stopped the 'common cold' NOR the 'flu', and so NEITHER their 'continuation of mutations'.

'Common cold' and 'flu' KILL 'some' now, and KILLED 'more' when they FIRST entered into human beings, EXACTLY LIKE what HAS and WILL HAPPEN with covid-19. Until a 'natural immunity' evolves AND 'continues to evolve' MORE will get MORE SICK and DIE in the earlier ages than in the later ages.

This is JUST the NATURAL PROCESS, and PROCESS, of ALL diseases/viruses entering the human species, from somewhere, and then 'natural immunity' continually evolving WITH TIME.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:57 pm That's the difference. No immunity to the cold, and it will likely kill you, just as the common flu was so deadly to those with no natural immunity--like the people that the PC like to refer to as 'indigenous'.

What would 'you', the NON "pc" call "those" PEOPLE, EXACTLY, if NOT 'indigenous'?

Let us NOT FORGET that it is 'you', "vegeteriantaxidermany", who has just 'separate' 'you', human beings or people, by using the "those" word here. You even speak as there is SOME who have 'natural immunity' and then there are THOSE who have 'none'.

'you' ALSO 'separated' "those", people, FROM 'you', people, by CLAIMING that 'you', people, HAVE so-called 'natural immunity' and "those", people, had none.

So, AGAIN, NOW what would 'you' CALL "those", people, that 'you' do NOT associated with 'you', people, if you do NOT want to CALL "them", 'indigenous'.

Here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of the UNDERLYING PRESUMPTIONS, and/or RACISM, that LAID DEEP within THOSE adult human beings, BACK in those OLDEN DAYS when this was being written.

What can be CLEARLY SEEN is these adult human beings, when responding to "others", would, on the PRETENCE of responding to some thing said and/or written, just REALLY want to EXPRESS their DEEP UNDERLYING PREOCCUPATIONS.

LOOK, WHERE did you get your OWN so-called 'natural immunity' FROM, EXACTLY, if 'you' were born with it, which is what 'natural immunity' infers or implies?

If it came from your PARENTS, then WHERE did they get their OWN 'natural immunity' from, EXACTLY?

And so and so on?

Now, if 'you' STILL WANT to LOOK AT and SEE 'things' as there are THOSE, people, and then there are US, people, and THOSE people had NO 'natural immunity' but WE people do have 'natural immunity', then so be. But the ONLY WAY that you can do this SUCCESSFULLY is with AGE, NOTHING ELSE.

BUT, if 'you' WANT to START LOOKING AT and SEEING thee ACTUAL Truth of things, then 'you', people (or human beings) are ALL the SAME. And, where 'you', the one known as "vegatariantaxidermy" here got ITS 'natural immunity' FROM was just through evolution, itself, and NOT because 'you' are DIFFERENT somehow. It was YOUR VERY OWN ANCESTORS who that virus jumped to, from other animals, and which SOME DIED of because of this 'jump', in the beginning, in THOSE days. They had NO 'natural immunity', YET, OBVIOUSLY, but THEY were what has MADE 'you'.

Now, AGAIN, what do 'you' CALL 'them', your VERY OWN ANCESTORS, if you DO NOT or WILL NOT CALL 'them' 'indigenous'?