Philosophy Now Forum

That question is mainly for Immanuel Can, but anyone can answer it.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:27 pm That question is mainly for Immanuel Can, but anyone can answer it.

It depends.

I personally believe that kind of Love can exist for the man and woman relationship. But it seems that some people never ever experience what they always dream of the most. They dream of this Love, they yearn and desire and want it so badly. It's like if only they knew how that kind of a relationship actually works. Sadly, for most people, they die before their dream is realised,never having experienced what they could have been, never knowing what they could have had.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:57 pm I personally believe that kind of Love can exist for the man and woman relationship. But it seems that some people never ever experience what they always dream of the most. They dream of this Love, they yearn and desire and want it so badly. It's like if only they knew how that kind of a relationship actually works. Sadly, for most people, they die before their dream is realised,never having experienced what they could have been, never knowing what they could have had.

Well, from what you say above, I can tell you're unfamiliar with what the Bible says about the nature of love between God and mankind. There are four Greek words that encompass that one concept -- storge, eros, phileo, and agape. "Dream" love has to do with eros, or for some, perhaps phileo. The love from God is agape. It has nothing sentimental, or "dreamy" about it: it's starkly realistic, and for that reason, has no dependency on mere emotion.

The man-woman love thing is not promised to anyone. Agape is available to everyone, but like all forms of love, must be by consent of both parties.

Unfortunately, most people do not seem willing to provide their consent. But agape, like all genuine love, cannot be forced, of course. Those that don't want it don't get it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:18 pm
Well, from what you say above, I can tell you're unfamiliar with what the Bible says about the nature of love between God and mankind.

Yes I do, but how I interpret it, might not be the same as how you interpret it, so be it. It's irrelevant what I know and what you know, one can only know what one knows and that's all there is to know about that.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:18 pmThere are four Greek words that encompass that one concept -- storge, eros, phileo, and agape. "Dream" love has to do with eros, or for some, perhaps phileo. The love from God is agape. It has nothing sentimental, or "dreamy" about it: it's starkly realistic, and for that reason, has no dependency on mere emotion.

The man-woman love thing is not promised to anyone. Agape is available to everyone, but like all forms of love, must be by consent of both parties.

Unfortunately, most people do not seem willing to provide their consent. But agape, like all genuine love, cannot be forced, of course. Those that don't want it don't get it.

I understand all this.

I know how to love someone unconditionally, but as of yet I have not been lucky enough to have that kind of love I am willing to share with another reciprocated back to me. That's when I discovered that I'm actually happier being alone, and celibate.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:57 pm I know how to love someone unconditionally, but as of yet I have not been lucky enough to have that kind of love I am willing to share with another reciprocated back to me.

Well, the Biblical concept is that the fullness of understanding of love comes from the experience of being loved...by God. "We love," says John, "because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19) and Jesus says, in John 13:34, "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another." So the power to love freely also proceeds from the confidence that one is already loved, and so can love regardless of reciprocation.

That may sound outrageous...that anyone could really love without expecting a return...but it is only in this sense that Christ could also tell his followers, "Love your enemies." For the very definition of an "enemy" is somebody who is not only certain not to reciprocate, but who is very likely to hurt you if you try. But love (agape), in the Biblical sense, is not emotion. It's an exercise of the will. It's a firm disposition that intends the good of the other, regardless of conditions. It's a stand taken on a moral basis, not on the basis of feelings.

Does that answer a person's longing for eros? Not directly. After all, we don't love God -- or enemies -- in the sort of way we love a partner. But it does deliver one from some of the things that prevent eros, such as expectations of the other, a history of disappointment, unresolved family issues from the past, bitterness from former lost opportunties, and so on. It leaves one with the confidence that even if all human beings fail, one is still loved, and loved by the most significant Person there can ever be.

So it frees one up to be ready for eros, if God ordains to give one the opportunity for it, free from the kinds of emotional dysfunction that can sink an eros relationship indefinitely. It does more than provide love; it makes the recipient more worthy, ready and capable of being loved by all others. It makes one less demanding of others, and more willing to give of oneself without thought of return. It can actually cure habits that have been sabotaging a liftetime of relationships, if such there be.

So it makes one more fit for human love, because the essential longing is met already in the love of God.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:27 pm That question is mainly for Immanuel Can, but anyone can answer it.

There could hardly be a greater insult to another human being than to claim you love them, "unconditionally." It means you find nothing of real value in them to love, that you do not love them for who and what they are. It means you love them for no reason at all because their is nothing about them that makes them worth loving. It's a euphemistic way of say, "I love you even though you are a useless piece of trash about which there is nothing worth loving."

It is that vile notion of love Christians (and other sentimentalists) promote. It turns all values upside down. It would be better to be hated than to be loved unconditionally.

Romantic love is the recognition of another human being's value to oneself that is so important, that one becomes one's very reason for living, and the object of one's highest aspirations and the source of one's greatest joy. It's very rare, and highly conditional.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:24 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:57 pm I know how to love someone unconditionally, but as of yet I have not been lucky enough to have that kind of love I am willing to share with another reciprocated back to me.

Well, the Biblical concept is that the fullness of understanding of love comes from the experience of being loved...by God. "We love," says John, "because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19) and Jesus says, in John 13:34, "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another." So the power to love freely also proceeds from the confidence that one is already loved, and so can love regardless of reciprocation.

I understand what you've said wholly.. Insofar, one is already loved, and that you are always this Love in every waking moment of your life.. However, while in the dream of separation where there are apparent others. The separation is palpable and real, even though it is an illusion, and so it's that separation that is felt as emotional pain and abandonment. In that pain, there is a longing for love to makes us feel whole again, but within the dream of separation, there is a strong sense of falsely believing that others can give us the love that we crave, temporally forgetting that we are already and always the love we crave. We are love, and that when we remember who we are, we stop looking for love outside ourselves, we see that love is not something that others can give us, or we give them, within the dream of separation, we have forgotten who we really are, which is God. That's what I believe anyway.

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RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:42 am
Romantic love is the recognition of another human being's value to oneself that is so important, that one becomes one's very reason for living, and the object of one's highest aspirations and the source of one's greatest joy. It's very rare, and highly conditional.

I totally agree with this. It is rare, and so far I haven't found it in my lifetime. But it doesn't matter, because I understand what God's love is, and what it is trying to show us. I'm alone with myself now and it's the most delicious state of being I've ever experienced...much to my amazement and surprise. Love is full of surprising suprises.

It's like walking around not knowing there is a diamond in your pocket without realising it had been there the whole time.

Maybe using the word ''Unconditional'' is the wrong word to use, but I do agree with your responses to the topic, so thanks for sharing them. I'm glad you said ''very rare'' because that's what I have always thought too. So I resonated with your reply very much.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:24 pm That may sound outrageous...that anyone could really love without expecting a return...but it is only in this sense that Christ could also tell his followers, "Love your enemies." For the very definition of an "enemy" is somebody who is not only certain not to reciprocate, but who is very likely to hurt you if you try. But love (agape), in the Biblical sense, is not emotion. It's an exercise of the will. It's a firm disposition that intends the good of the other, regardless of conditions. It's a stand taken on a moral basis, not on the basis of feelings.

I totally understand this. Very well explained IC. I'm Resonating deeply, so Thanks.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:24 pm
Does that answer a person's longing for eros? Not directly. After all, we don't love God -- or enemies -- in the sort of way we love a partner. But it does deliver one from some of the things that prevent eros, such as expectations of the other, a history of disappointment, unresolved family issues from the past, bitterness from former lost opportunties, and so on. It leaves one with the confidence that even if all human beings fail, one is still loved, and loved by the most significant Person there can ever be.

So it frees one up to be ready for eros, if God ordains to give one the opportunity for it, free from the kinds of emotional dysfunction that can sink an eros relationship indefinitely. It does more than provide love; it makes the recipient more worthy, ready and capable of being loved by all others. It makes one less demanding of others, and more willing to give of oneself without thought of return. It can actually cure habits that have been sabotaging a liftetime of relationships, if such there be.

So it makes one more fit for human love, because the essential longing is met already in the love of God.

Very well said.

And I'm sorry for ever misjudging you as a narcissist. I have judged you very harshly, as a narcissist only because your knowing of who God is appears to be different to mine. And yet I totally resonate with these words you are showing me now...which are your words as a way to reveal your own unique understanding of God.

I've clashed with you only because you didn't agree with my views when I claimed we are nothing being everything. In reality, you are me and I am you, but you may even disagree with that notion, no problem, it doesn't matter to me. I already know you are a good person, because I see myself in you, and I understand what you are trying to show me.

Do you understand me when I say to you, you do not have to be a religious man, or a Christian to know and be love? You do not have to take on that or any other title to be who you always are which is Love?

Do you understand me when I say to you, you need to deliver yourself from the character known as Jesus Christ? you can throw away that title now, you are love, you do not need to carry the cross around your neck to be love.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:41 am ...temporally forgetting that we are already and always the love we crave.

I think we all know that that's not true.

Witney Houston may have sung, "Learning to love myself/ It was the greatest love of all." But she died of a cocaine overdose. Clearly, there were things in her life that were still very much lacking. What she was singing, she didn't really experience.

And I think we know we're lying to ourselves when we say, "It's enough that I love myself." It's not. It's just a thing we say when we've despaired of finding relationship outside of ourselves, and have tried to wrap ourselves in blanket of self-love. But that blanket's too short and too narrow, and the cold winds still get to us.

And if, for even one second, we actually believed we could find the kind of relationship outside of ourselves that we long for, we'd drop that nonsense like a hot potato and grab for the real thing. We know that, too.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:07 am And I'm sorry for ever misjudging you as a narcissist.

Not a problem. I kind of expect anger from people. I know I'm speaking to them from another worldview, and I know I'm asking a lot of them to think about things differently. It's bound to generate flack.

I don't take these things personally.

Do you understand me when I say to you...a Christian to know and be love?

I see the words. I know what the words mean. And I understand when somebody hasn't experienced something, they may well be drawn to think, "what I already know is all there is." But I also know it's not.

Do you understand me when I say to you, you need to deliver yourself from the character known as Jesus Christ?

Well, you'll have to understand that that won't be happening; and not because I'm anything, and not even just because nobody gives up the best thing they've ever found in life. When you enter into relationship with Jesus Christ, you don't just find that you have Him; you find that He has you. And that's a much more profound thing than you can imagine.

What you're saying then, is "You need to deliver yourself from everything good." So yes, I can understand the words; but they don't make any sense to apply. You may as well write, "You need to deliver yourself from hope, health, light, goodness, wisdom, truth and love."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:24 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:41 am ...temporally forgetting that we are already and always the love we crave.

I think we all know that that's not true.

Witney Houston may have sung, "Learning to love myself/ It was the greatest love of all." But she died of a cocaine overdose. Clearly, there were things in her life that were still very much lacking. What she was singing, she didn't really experience.

And I think we know we're lying to ourselves when we say, "It's enough that I love myself." It's not. It's just a thing we say when we've despaired of finding relationship outside of ourselves, and have tried to wrap ourselves in blanket of self-love. But that blanket's too short and too narrow, and the cold winds still get to us.

And if, for even one second, we actually believed we could find the kind of relationship outside of ourselves that we long for, we'd drop that nonsense like a hot potato and grab for the real thing. We know that, too.

I do not agree with anything you have said here...sorry to say. Just because someone sings about self-love, doesn't mean she's an awakened being. She sang for money and fame, and as we all know, the lyrics to a love song is important, it's impact on our emotions is what makes the song a big seller. The fact that WH was an emotional wreck inside has nothing to do with what she sang about.

You and I have different ideas about what is Self-Love IC

Self-love has everything to do with ''awakening'' which is the realisation there is only one of us here in the form of the many...this is nondual understanding, you know, that reality you believe is false. So we are both on different planets when it comes to our understanding of what real Love is.

In my opinion, we cannot love another person until we have first learnt to love ourself. All relationships we form with others will fail, until we have first mastered the art of loving ourself. When we know how to love ourself, that is when we realise what is God's love. When that realisation comes to us through grace, the desire or need for a partner no longer exists as a priority. If a partner does happen to come along through the magic of serendipity, the relationship with that partner will be an instant success because the one who loves oneself first will allow the partner the absolute freedom to be itself, allowing the partner to stay or go. And there will be no dependancy, expectation or neediness in that relationship. It will be completely open. And this kind of love between two people is very appealing to most emotionally intelligent adults. But sadly, few mangage to recognise this agape love, because they are still in the belief that love is what is given to them from an external source, which is not true love.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:37 pm
What you're saying then, is "You need to deliver yourself from everything good." So yes, I can understand the words; but they don't make any sense to apply. You may as well write, "You need to deliver yourself from hope, health, light, goodness, wisdom, truth and love."

No, that's not what I am saying at all. You misunderstand because you have no understanding of nondual self.

Jesus Christ is an archetype. Self-love is delivering yourself from any mental image you have of yourself, knowing that in reality, you really do not have any image of yourself, except the mental image you project onto the ''Imageless'' screen of consciousness.

But if you do not understand this, then so be it. This is nondual understanding, that understanding you believe is false, so be it.

Honestly IC, I give up, The entire Bible is a narrative of the human condition that's all, Human minds are brainwashed by narratives. Do you understand? NARRATIVES

I cannot expect you to understand what I say, so there's no need to even try anymore.

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