Philosophy Now Forum

At the very basic level Democracy has two ways ahead. Either globalisation from the top down with billions of autonomous people in a global community or rather state. Or globalisation from the bottom upwards, with the semi-autonomous local community at the base.

RWStanding wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:53 am At the very basic level Democracy has two ways ahead. Either globalisation from the top down with billions of autonomous people in a global community or rather state. Or globalisation from the bottom upwards, with the semi-autonomous local community at the base.

Democracy is the political ideology based on the principle that whoever has the biggest gang gets to rule everyone else. It is a vile idea that is the source of every social evil. No greater benefactor can be imagined than the one who would rid the world of democracy.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:49 pm

RWStanding wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:53 am At the very basic level Democracy has two ways ahead. Either globalisation from the top down with billions of autonomous people in a global community or rather state. Or globalisation from the bottom upwards, with the semi-autonomous local community at the base.

Democracy is the political ideology based on the principle that whoever has the biggest gang gets to rule everyone else. It is a vile idea that is the source of every social evil. No greater benefactor can be imagined than the one who would rid the world of democracy.

Are you in favor of dictatorship?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:56 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:49 pm

RWStanding wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:53 am At the very basic level Democracy has two ways ahead. Either globalisation from the top down with billions of autonomous people in a global community or rather state. Or globalisation from the bottom upwards, with the semi-autonomous local community at the base.

Democracy is the political ideology based on the principle that whoever has the biggest gang gets to rule everyone else. It is a vile idea that is the source of every social evil. No greater benefactor can be imagined than the one who would rid the world of democracy.

Are you in favor of dictatorship?

Dictatorship is some people dictating how others live. Some dictorships have only one dictator, most consist of the majority of a country's voting population. All dictatorship is wrong, whether it's single dictator or a hundred million.

A democracy is just a dictatorship of many.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:38 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:56 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:49 pm
Democracy is the political ideology based on the principle that whoever has the biggest gang gets to rule everyone else. It is a vile idea that is the source of every social evil. No greater benefactor can be imagined than the one who would rid the world of democracy.

Are you in favor of dictatorship?

Dictatorship is some people dictating how others live. Some dictorships have only one dictator, most consist of the majority of a country's voting population. All dictatorship is wrong, whether it's single dictator or a hundred million.

A democracy is just a dictatorship of many.

So what is your solution?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:51 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:38 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:56 pm
Are you in favor of dictatorship?

Dictatorship is some people dictating how others live. Some dictorships have only one dictator, most consist of the majority of a country's voting population. All dictatorship is wrong, whether it's single dictator or a hundred million.

A democracy is just a dictatorship of many.

So what is your solution?

What's the problem? I'm not being snide. What is it you think some political system is required for?

Scandinavian social democracy 80´s style was a pretty good tradeoff.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:07 am What's the problem?

The problem manifests under many names, “The Mafia” being one of the better known.

mickthinks wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:53 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:07 am What's the problem?

The problem manifests under many names, “The Mafia” being one of the better known.

One of the great mistakes in philosophy, as far as I'm concerned, is the tacit assumption that the branch called, "politics," is concerned with, "how a society ought to be organized," which further assumes some agency (government) is required to make a society the kind it ought to be. Throughout history, no one has ever questioned that tacit assumption? Except for a handful of anarchists, who are not usually considered philosophers, it is universally assumed there must be some system or agency that uses force, or the threat of it, to make people in a society behave in a certain way.

All sorts of excuses are always made for government, like protecting individuals from criminals, (e.g. Mafia), but of course no government can do that without itself becoming a Mafia (under a different name). In fact, I see no difference between the Mafia and any other government except that a mafia is a kind of amateurish form of criminal, while government criminals are the real professionals. They all live and finance their lives and all their activities by confiscating the wealth of others by means of force and threats of force and violence.

No government ever actually provides any of the things used to justify them, and all the worse horrors and atrocities in history have been perpetrated buy governments. No society is ever made better by its government and there is no principle to decide what kind of society is the right one. Everyone has their own idea of Utopia, (the perfect society), and every government meant to produce one actually produces hell--Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, Red China, etc.

I have no idea where you live or what your circumstances are, and I think it's wrong to ask personal questions--so this is just rhetorical. Are you actually threatened in any way by the Mafia, or other members of a criminal family, cartel, or syndicate? Do you know any such people personally?

I lived in New England, in and around Boston for a number of years and personally new and even had neighbors who were members of such organizations. They were never a threat to me (with one exception). They were certainly evil in their relations with some others (mostly other criminals), but like politicians, were both personable and polite and had, like politicians, an, "air of respectability." One Mafia Don was actually very generous to my mother, because his niece was our neighbor and my mother's friend.

Today's government police are much more a threat individuals than any so-called criminal gangs.

My point, "what's the problem?" is serious. I think the problem is government, that outside of that, there is no problem, and even if there were, no form of government is the solution.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:07 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:51 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:38 pm
Dictatorship is some people dictating how others live. Some dictorships have only one dictator, most consist of the majority of a country's voting population. All dictatorship is wrong, whether it's single dictator or a hundred million.

A democracy is just a dictatorship of many.

So what is your solution?

What's the problem? I'm not being snide. What is it you think some political system is required for?

Dictatorship is the problem. Isn't it?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:42 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:07 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:51 pm
So what is your solution?

What's the problem? I'm not being snide. What is it you think some political system is required for?

Dictatorship is the problem. Isn't it?

I don't think so. Every government is ultimately a dictatorship, an agency of force dictating what others must or must not do. If there is a problem it is government itself. It cannot be fixed. So long as most people want a government there will always be one. There is no social/political solution so long as most people believe some kind of system can be set up that will make a society what they would like it to be.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:56 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:42 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:07 am
What's the problem? I'm not being snide. What is it you think some political system is required for?

Dictatorship is the problem. Isn't it?

I don't think so. Every government is ultimately a dictatorship, an agency of force dictating what others must or must not do. If there is a problem it is government itself. It cannot be fixed. So long as most people want a government there will always be one. There is no social/political solution so long as most people believe some kind of system can be set up that will make a society what they would like it to be.

I agree. People need to get mature in order that each person takes care of duty. What is the need for a government when each person does his/her job properly?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:26 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:56 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:42 pm
Dictatorship is the problem. Isn't it?

I don't think so. Every government is ultimately a dictatorship, an agency of force dictating what others must or must not do. If there is a problem it is government itself. It cannot be fixed. So long as most people want a government there will always be one. There is no social/political solution so long as most people believe some kind of system can be set up that will make a society what they would like it to be.

I agree. People need to get mature in order that each person takes care of duty. What is the need for a government when each person does his/her job properly?

Well, we do agree on that. A society is whatever the individuals in a society are. A society of honest responsible individuals living their lives as well as can without interfering in anyone else's life would neither need or want a government.

I agree that a society of honest people may not need a government to establish peace and order. However peace and order is not the only function of government. Other possible functions include provision of public goods and services, promotion of general and individual welfare, and development - economic, social, and individual development.

Is a dictatorship bad? In practice and reality, it is because it seems to be always associated with oppression, corruption, and impoverishment. By the way dictatorship means the leader has unlimited power and term of office. If the dictator is good, maybe the country will be fine and even progressive.

Is democracy good? Again in practice and reality, it is because it seems to be always associated with prosperity and progress. However, if the voters are and the leaders they elect are ignorant, maybe the country will be in bad shape.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:47 pm I see no difference between the Mafia and any other government ...

I agree up to a point, and where I demur is for another time.

For now I want to take you on a thought journey starting from that thought, if you are willing to follow me: which came first, the Italian Mafia or the Italian government? Would the Mafia in Italy wither away if the Italian government were abolished or would it thrive?