Philosophy Now Forum

As governments and corporations have slowly [but surely] transplanted health care from the private to the public domain, individuals have lost not only the ability to manage their care, but much more important, the life philosophy of each person [which historically guided decisions affecting their care] has been supplanted by the demands of a centralized systems catering only to the needs of large institutions. As we are all aware, patients [and their rights] have been morphing into customers [with few or no rights] over the past several decades.

The disheartening results of government, corporate, or hybrid dominated health care systems were quite predictable and have followed the same course as did the annexation of many other large institutions, e.g., education, law, transportation, finance/banking, regulation, etc. Again, we witness similar patterns of centralization with concurrent loss of individual autonomy playing-out throughout the Western world. Add in hefty portions systemic and individual corruption and it is not difficult to see why we have been delivered to the brink.

The most important dynamic between provider and patient is whether the patient can accurately elucidate their philosophy of health care, an understanding that is procured as part of an overall history. A provider should not only desire to have the most definitive understanding of the patient's health issue[s], but get a keen sense of how they might wish to proceed, as well. Unfortunately, this critical step is often neglected as it is no longer the patient who is directing their care, it is the institution instead that has decided [in advance] what type of care each patient will receive based on projected group outcomes.

Providers are encouraged to give uniform care to patients [both within their own patient-bases and between providers] so as to increase institutional efficiencies and outcomes based on what the institutions feel are important [as opposed to what each patient may feel is important]. The patient has lost autonomy [and individuality] becoming part of a group that can be managed institutionally.

COVID19 has provided a plethora of examples of how this group management mentality has poisoned health care systems throughout the Western world and subjected individuals to all kinds of bizarre policy designed only to allow institutions to manage the group. As should be quite apparent to anybody paying attention, this has been an abject failure of Herculean proportions and will hopefully lead to a de-centralization of health care going forward. It is only when the individual patient's personal health care philosophy can be implemented by their provider do outcomes begin to meet actual patient needs.

Relative to the evolutionary timeline, humans are being more animals than being more human.
As such for most humans it is a dog-eat-dog world out there in all aspects of human activities, including the overall health matters.

To improve on this dog-eat-dog state to a better state [human] that will resolve all the problems and issues you raised related to health matters and for other matters, we need to expedite the development of the inherent philosophical potential [dormant in majority] within all humans.

Obviously it is too much to expect 100% of all humans to improve to the expected state of progress. To be efficient we need to rely on the Normal Distribution to estimate the critical mass necessary to achieve the intended state where all the problems and issues related to health are ironed out to some satisfactory standard.

The Health Care problems you listed above cannot be tackled on a piecemeal basis but must be approached on a holistic basis together with all other inter-related issues.

The philosophical solutions will entail a holistic approach that will cover the Philosophy of Health and Health Care, the Philosophy of Human Nature, the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics, and other relevant aspects of philosophy to achieve a state where the majority of humans will spontaneously co-operate toward the common good and optimality for all without one exploiting the other[s].

The above is merely an outline, the details necessary will be very complex.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:33 am Relative to the evolutionary timeline, humans are being more animals than being more human.
As such for most humans it is a dog-eat-dog world out there in all aspects of human activities, including the overall health matters.

To improve on this dog-eat-dog state to a better state [human] that will resolve all the problems and issues you raised related to health matters and for other matters, we need to expedite the development of the inherent philosophical potential [dormant in majority] within all humans.

Obviously it is too much to expect 100% of all humans to improve to the expected state of progress. To be efficient we need to rely on the Normal Distribution to estimate the critical mass necessary to achieve the intended state where all the problems and issues related to health are ironed out to some satisfactory standard.

The Health Care problems you listed above cannot be tackled on a piecemeal basis but must be approached on a holistic basis together with all other inter-related issues.

The philosophical solutions will entail a holistic approach that will cover the Philosophy of Health and Health Care, the Philosophy of Human Nature, the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics, and other relevant aspects of philosophy to achieve a state where the majority of humans will spontaneously co-operate toward the common good and optimality for all without one exploiting the other[s].

The above is merely an outline, the details necessary will be very complex.

Rely on Normal Distribution?

Although people can certainly benefit through self-education, they have all the tools needed to successfully navigate a path leading to favorable health care outcomes. What is necessary is to excise the cancer that is government and corporations and their pathological interference every step of the way.

A good doctor [one who knows the patient] can listen, test, diagnose, educate, and then [in concert with the patient] design and initiate a plan that can address the vast majority of health issues. Government and corporations have figured out how the destroy the doctor/patient relationship at each step so there is no choice but to administer their proscribed treatments [designed only to meet the criteria which allows them to be paid maximally because it adheres to the rules set down to enforce group outcomes]. Individual results are not so important.

Health care has become incredibly complex on many, many levels, but [fundamentally] what is most important has remained the same...the relationship between provider and patient. This is where the rubber meets the road and this is exactly where large institutions have worked their magic in the most horrific finanicalization scheme of all...spinning human suffering into gold.

simplicity wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:33 pm Rely on Normal Distribution?

Although people can certainly benefit through self-education, they have all the tools needed to successfully navigate a path leading to favorable health care outcomes. What is necessary is to excise the cancer that is government and corporations and their pathological interference every step of the way.

A good doctor [one who knows the patient] can listen, test, diagnose, educate, and then [in concert with the patient] design and initiate a plan that can address the vast majority of health issues. Government and corporations have figured out how the destroy the doctor/patient relationship at each step so there is no choice but to administer their proscribed treatments [designed only to meet the criteria which allows them to be paid maximally because it adheres to the rules set down to enforce group outcomes]. Individual results are not so important.

Health care has become incredibly complex on many, many levels, but [fundamentally] what is most important has remained the same...the relationship between provider and patient. This is where the rubber meets the road and this is exactly where large institutions have worked their magic in the most horrific finanicalization scheme of all...spinning human suffering into gold.

You missed my point totally.

I am not dealing with specifics, i.e. on a piecemeal basis.

What I presented was to increase the philosophical competence [wisdom, intelligence, rationality, compassion, honesty, integrity, empathy, co-operativeness, and other positive values] of the average human to a certain higher standard.
This is not done by education alone but whatever it take to make changes in the human brain so that one increases such competences.

Once the above are achieved sufficiently in all people or the average [thus need Normal Distribution as a guide], people in organizations will not strive to destroy any doctor-patient relation, or any other human relationship.
Then each individual person will work to optimize their position with that of humanity in every aspect of human activity.

The above proposal is feasible, given that the average human and humanity has now reached a level [spontaneously] to the extent of making chattel slavery illegal in all sovereign nations.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:17 am
What I presented was to increase the philosophical competence [wisdom, intelligence, rationality, compassion, honesty, integrity, empathy, co-operativeness, and other positive values] of the average human to a certain higher standard.
This is not done by education alone but whatever it take to make changes in the human brain so that one increases such competences.

You've been watching too many late-night sci-fi movies. People are quite capable the way they are.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:17 amOnce the above are achieved sufficiently in all people or the average [thus need Normal Distribution as a guide], people in organizations will not strive to destroy any doctor-patient relation, or any other human relationship.
Then each individual person will work to optimize their position with that of humanity in every aspect of human activity.

Really...

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:17 amThe above proposal is feasible, given that the average human and humanity has now reached a level [spontaneously] to the extent of making chattel slavery illegal in all sovereign nations.

We are talking about human beings, right?

People are what they are. Essentially, it's as good as it's ever going to get. Maximize good things [cooperation, productivity, etc.], minimize bad things [corruption, centralization, senseless violence, etc.] and that's about the best we can do.

simplicity wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:37 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:17 am
What I presented was to increase the philosophical competence [wisdom, intelligence, rationality, compassion, honesty, integrity, empathy, co-operativeness, and other positive values] of the average human to a certain higher standard.
This is not done by education alone but whatever it take to make changes in the human brain so that one increases such competences.

You've been watching too many late-night sci-fi movies. People are quite capable the way they are.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:17 amOnce the above are achieved sufficiently in all people or the average [thus need Normal Distribution as a guide], people in organizations will not strive to destroy any doctor-patient relation, or any other human relationship.
Then each individual person will work to optimize their position with that of humanity in every aspect of human activity.

Really...

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:17 amThe above proposal is feasible, given that the average human and humanity has now reached a level [spontaneously] to the extent of making chattel slavery illegal in all sovereign nations.

We are talking about human beings, right?

People are what they are. Essentially, it's as good as it's ever going to get. Maximize good things [cooperation, productivity, etc.], minimize bad things [corruption, centralization, senseless violence, etc.] and that's about the best we can do.

It is too crude to shout out the 'Frankenstein' bogeyman.
This is typical when the flight or fight response thus the resistance to change response is triggered in the majority.

Note the analogy of the Legal Banning of Chattel Slavery involving human beings.
Since >10,000 up to the last 50 years, slavery was prevalent and some countries still recognized Chattel slavery as legal. [note 'chattel' in this case].
But now in 2021 all sovereign nations in the World has banned and make Chattel Slavery illegal.

The above change in comparing the state [in terms of intelligence, wisdom, compassion, empathy, co-operations, etc. related to slavery] of the minds of humans >10,000 years ago to the present must be corresponded with changes of the wirings of neurons in the brains of the majority of humans.

It is nothing to do with sci-fi but common reasoning if one has some ideas of how neurons work in the brain to affect psychological states and competences.
Surely you would not deny this?

If we understand how the mechanisms and principles in how the brain works toward the banning chattel slavery by the majority and thus its evil, then we can apply such principles to other aspect of human activities, like Health care for example.

I did not say it will work immediately.
It took humanity >10,000 years to move from legal slavery to illegal slavery, so it will take time for what I had proposed. It is feasible in the future generations given the evident possibility with legal stopping the evil of slavery.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 am
If we understand how the mechanisms and principles in how the brain works toward the banning chattel slavery by the majority and thus its evil, then we can apply such principles to other aspect of human activities, like Health care for example.

It has nothing to do with understanding how the brain works [nothing is truly understood]. The answers to all issues are quite simple. The difficulty lies in human nature.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 amI did not say it will work immediately.
It took humanity >10,000 years to move from legal slavery to illegal slavery, so it will take time for what I had proposed. It is feasible in the future generations given the evident possibility with legal stopping the evil of slavery.

If you take a look at the organisation of labor throughout the ages, you will see that what changes is the method by which the few are able to extract labor-value from the many and little else.

The answer is to have the most efficient economic system with the least amount of [necessary] regulation while providing the greatest protection against political/financial corruption [which is ALWAYS the problem].

IOW, remove the corruption from the present system and you would have productivity increases that would make the economic miracle of 19th century America look like a depression.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:09 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 am
If we understand how the mechanisms and principles in how the brain works toward the banning chattel slavery by the majority and thus its evil, then we can apply such principles to other aspect of human activities, like Health care for example.

It has nothing to do with understanding how the brain works [nothing is truly understood]. The answers to all issues are quite simple. The difficulty lies in human nature.

Surprised you are unable to get the point.
What is human nature is DNA and the >100 billions of neurons in the brain and another set in the visceral organs and other parts of the body.
What and How a human believes and acts is based on what is pre-"programmed" or post-programmed in the brain.
All positive and negative tendencies are represented by what is programmed [nature or nurture] in the brain of a person.

A person who is regarded as good [not evil] is supposed to have been nurtured wisely in his life and there must therefore be changes to his brain algorithms [programmed].
At present we rely on the black-box principles to nurture good people based on traditions, trial and errors, learned experiences, etc. without understanding what is going inside the brain precisely.

Now if we can have knowledge of how such good_ness are programmed in the brain, then we don't have to rely too much on the black-box approach but instead target the specific set of neural correlates to produce the expected results.

The above is a hypothesis but it is feasible in the future when we have the full map of the brain neural connectivity.
Note we have already mapped the human genome which was once thought impossible.
We are now on our way to map the human brain fully [partial at present] note;
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/

Thus when humanity has fully mapped [even if 80% only] it will be possible to tweak the brain positively to deal with all the issues that you have raised above. It must be done holistically and fool proof with reinforcement of Morality and Ethics.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 amI did not say it will work immediately.
It took humanity >10,000 years to move from legal slavery to illegal slavery, so it will take time for what I had proposed. It is feasible in the future generations given the evident possibility with legal stopping the evil of slavery.

If you take a look at the organisation of labor throughout the ages, you will see that what changes is the method by which the few are able to extract labor-value from the many and little else.

What is fundamental is not the methods which are manifestation of changes in the brain, i.e. the beliefs and mental competences.
So our focus should be what is going on in the brain of the person.
Since you are familiar with Zen, there are a lot of research done on seasoned Zen and other meditators [with their supposedly more developed human nature]. The findings is the brain connectivity of these long term meditators are different from the common person.

In the future, it is possible to replicate [almost exactly] the same brain connectivity of a person who has 40 years of meditation in say 2 years via targeted neural changes. Some of it already are possible via drugs and hallucinogens albeit short term and not lasting or even via brain damage or mental illness.

The answer is to have the most efficient economic system with the least amount of [necessary] regulation while providing the greatest protection against political/financial corruption [which is ALWAYS the problem].

IOW, remove the corruption from the present system and you would have productivity increases that would make the economic miracle of 19th century America look like a depression.

Your above are merely wants and hopes in very gross terms.
If we act piecemeal only without being holistic involving in changing the connectivity in the brain, then there will only be blunders after blunders albeit with some sliver of positive results.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am
Surprised you are unable to get the point.

I get your point but believe you are incredibly naive. You simply do not understand what you do not understand. Almost nothing is known [even in human bullshit understanding] about the brain and how it works.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am What is human nature is DNA and the >100 billions of neurons in the brain and another set in the visceral organs and other parts of the body.
What and How a human believes and acts is based on what is pre-"programmed" or post-programmed in the brain.
All positive and negative tendencies are represented by what is programmed [nature or nurture] in the brain of a person.

This would be like speculating on what's on the other side of the Universe.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am A person who is regarded as good [not evil] is supposed to have been nurtured wisely in his life and there must therefore be changes to his brain algorithms [programmed].
At present we rely on the black-box principles to nurture good people based on traditions, trial and errors, learned experiences, etc. without understanding what is going inside the brain precisely.

Now if we can have knowledge of how such good_ness are programmed in the brain, then we don't have to rely too much on the black-box approach but instead target the specific set of neural correlates to produce the expected results.

The above is a hypothesis but it is feasible in the future when we have the full map of the brain neural connectivity.
Note we have already mapped the human genome which was once thought impossible.
We are now on our way to map the human brain fully [partial at present] note;
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/

Thus when humanity has fully mapped [even if 80% only] it will be possible to tweak the brain positively to deal with all the issues that you have raised above. It must be done holistically and fool proof with reinforcement of Morality and Ethics.

Again, you are among the true believers wanting science to save humanity. Not going to happen.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am What is fundamental is not the methods which are manifestation of changes in the brain, i.e. the beliefs and mental competences.
So our focus should be what is going on in the brain of the person.
Since you are familiar with Zen, there are a lot of research done on seasoned Zen and other meditators [with their supposedly more developed human nature]. The findings is the brain connectivity of these long term meditators are different from the common person.

In the future, it is possible to replicate [almost exactly] the same brain connectivity of a person who has 40 years of meditation in say 2 years via targeted neural changes. Some of it already are possible via drugs and hallucinogens albeit short term and not lasting or even via brain damage or mental illness.

I am aware of the studies but nobody can really interpret them. Again, you are speculating on something that nobody has any clue about.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am Your above are merely wants and hopes in very gross terms.
If we act piecemeal only without being holistic involving in changing the connectivity in the brain, then there will only be blunders after blunders albeit with some sliver of positive results.

Can you imagine the outcome if you gave power to the elite to re-wire everybody's brain?

Here's the take-home message. The organisation of society leads to massive chaos for the many and riches for the few. In the few cases where this tendency has been thwarted is when the power of the elite has been severely attenuated [again, I give you 19th century America as a prime example].

The system is not going to save you. Only you can do that [and you can do it now!].

simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:56 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am
Surprised you are unable to get the point.

I get your point but believe you are incredibly naive. You simply do not understand what you do not understand. Almost nothing is known [even in human bullshit understanding] about the brain and how it works.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am What is human nature is DNA and the >100 billions of neurons in the brain and another set in the visceral organs and other parts of the body.
What and How a human believes and acts is based on what is pre-"programmed" or post-programmed in the brain.
All positive and negative tendencies are represented by what is programmed [nature or nurture] in the brain of a person.

This would be like speculating on what's on the other side of the Universe.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am A person who is regarded as good [not evil] is supposed to have been nurtured wisely in his life and there must therefore be changes to his brain algorithms [programmed].
At present we rely on the black-box principles to nurture good people based on traditions, trial and errors, learned experiences, etc. without understanding what is going inside the brain precisely.

Now if we can have knowledge of how such good_ness are programmed in the brain, then we don't have to rely too much on the black-box approach but instead target the specific set of neural correlates to produce the expected results.

The above is a hypothesis but it is feasible in the future when we have the full map of the brain neural connectivity.
Note we have already mapped the human genome which was once thought impossible.
We are now on our way to map the human brain fully [partial at present] note;
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/

Thus when humanity has fully mapped [even if 80% only] it will be possible to tweak the brain positively to deal with all the issues that you have raised above. It must be done holistically and fool proof with reinforcement of Morality and Ethics.

Again, you are among the true believers wanting science to save humanity. Not going to happen.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am What is fundamental is not the methods which are manifestation of changes in the brain, i.e. the beliefs and mental competences.
So our focus should be what is going on in the brain of the person.
Since you are familiar with Zen, there are a lot of research done on seasoned Zen and other meditators [with their supposedly more developed human nature]. The findings is the brain connectivity of these long term meditators are different from the common person.

In the future, it is possible to replicate [almost exactly] the same brain connectivity of a person who has 40 years of meditation in say 2 years via targeted neural changes. Some of it already are possible via drugs and hallucinogens albeit short term and not lasting or even via brain damage or mental illness.

I am aware of the studies but nobody can really interpret them. Again, you are speculating on something that nobody has any clue about.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:10 am Your above are merely wants and hopes in very gross terms.
If we act piecemeal only without being holistic involving in changing the connectivity in the brain, then there will only be blunders after blunders albeit with some sliver of positive results.

Can you imagine the outcome if you gave power to the elite to re-wire everybody's brain?

Here's the take-home message. The organisation of society leads to massive chaos for the many and riches for the few. In the few cases where this tendency has been thwarted is when the power of the elite has been severely attenuated [again, I give you 19th century America as a prime example].

The system is not going to save you. Only you can do that [and you can do it now!].

I'll pass on the above.

Note this new thread;
Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain & ...
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33572

Returning to the original intent of this post...

Other than the thousand other things that have made health care much more difficult to practice over my 40 year career, the most pressing issue [by far] has been the whittling away of patients' rights to control their own care. And although there is plenty of blame to go around (from over-reaching governments to voracious corporations and their lackeys ("thought leaders" within the professions charged with spreading corporate non-sense to the rank and file) to the professions themselves that took the patient, turned him up-side-down and inside-out, excising his dignity while implanting uncertainty and fear [and poverty if they happen to be unlucky enough to have a serious illness].

Unfortunately, most people have not seen this institutional dys-function as the opportunity it truly is, but instead, have doubled-down on their own ineptness by refusing to take responsibility for their own health. The consumption and exercise habits [alone] of Western folks are getting worse and worse at the same time there is a plethora of data available detailing the health benefits afforded by a lifestyle that prioritizes healthy eating/drinking and regular cardio-activity.

From my perspective, hoping the flock will care about things like climate change [even if it was an existential issue] or any other social issue seems a bit of stretch when the vast majority can't even get it together to take care of themselves.