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Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:53 pm
by bahman
Strong emergence refers to a phenomenon at which a system has at least a property that the parts do not have. Weak emergence refers to a phenomenon that a system has a set of properties at which these properties are properties of parts but they change depending on the physical condition of the system. The weak emergence is feasible. The strong emergence is magic.
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:29 pm
by seeds
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:53 pm
The strong emergence is magic.
Yet, "voilà," "abracadabra." "presto-chango," the phenomenon of
"consciousness"...
(which is oft considered to be an example of "strong emergence")
...somehow manages to effloresce (emerge) from a system that - in and of itself - does not provide an obvious explanation as to how something so
radically different from the system's constituent parts could emerge from those parts - regardless of how those parts function together as a system.
As per the Wiki definition of strong emergence (bolding mine):
Wiki wrote:
The whole is other than the sum of its parts.
In other words, the sum of the system's parts cannot account for the state of the "whole."
My point is that according to your assessment, consciousness must be a product of
"magic."
_______
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:10 pm
by Impenitent
Super Chicken has the strongest emergence
-Imp
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:22 pm
by bahman
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:29 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:53 pm
The strong emergence is magic.
Yet, "voilà," "abracadabra." "presto-chango," the phenomenon of
"consciousness"...
(which is oft considered to be an example of "strong emergence")
...somehow manages to effloresce (emerge) from a system that - in and of itself - does not provide an obvious explanation as to how something so
radically different from the system's constituent parts could emerge from those parts - regardless of how those parts function together as a system.
As per the Wiki definition of strong emergence (bolding mine):
Wiki wrote:
The whole is other than the sum of its parts.
In other words, the sum of the system's parts cannot account for the state of the "whole."
My point is that according to your assessment, consciousness must be a product of
"magic."
_______
But magic is not feasible since it is not explicable.
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:40 pm
by seeds
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:22 pm
But magic is not feasible since it is not explicable.
Bahman, try to be mindful of the implications of your own assertions, because
you are the one who insisted in your OP that
strong emergence is
"MAGIC."
Well...consciousness is an example of strong emergence.
Therefore, either provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why consciousness emerges from an arrangement of unconscious matter,...
...or, if not,...
...then don't be surprised if someone points out that
your very own words imply that consciousness (again, an example of "strong emergence") is the result of
magic.
_______
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:03 pm
by bahman
seeds wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:40 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:22 pm
But magic is not feasible since it is not explicable.
Bahman, try to be mindful of the implications of your own assertions, because
you are the one who insisted in your OP that
strong emergence is
"MAGIC."
Well...consciousness is an example of strong emergence.
Therefore, either provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why consciousness emerges from an arrangement of unconscious matter,...
...or, if not,...
...then don't be surprised if someone points out that
your very own words imply that consciousness (again, an example of "strong emergence") is the result of
magic.
_______
Consciousness, being aware, is an ability of the mind.
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:52 pm
by seeds
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:03 pm
Consciousness, being aware, is an ability of the mind.
Come on now bahman, can't you do any better than a short little twitteresque response that (apparently, unbeknownst to you) simply replaces one example of strong emergence (i.e. "consciousness") with another example of strong emergence ("mind")?
Okay then, if you insist that strong emergence can only be a product of
"magic," then provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why a
"mind"...
(and especially the self-aware "agent" that comes with it)
...can somehow emerge from an arrangement of
mindless/agentless matter?
(And please, bahman, how about putting a little more thought and effort into your replies.)
_______
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:16 pm
by bahman
seeds wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:52 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:03 pm
Consciousness, being aware, is an ability of the mind.
Come on now bahman, can't you do any better than a short little twitteresque response that (apparently, unbeknownst to you) simply replaces one example of strong emergence (i.e. "consciousness") with another example of strong emergence ("mind")?
Okay then, if you insist that strong emergence can only be a product of
"magic," then provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why a
"mind"...
(and especially the self-aware "agent" that comes with it)
...can somehow emerge from an arrangement of
mindless/agentless matter?
(And please, bahman, how about putting a little more thought and effort into your replies.)
_______
Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:07 pm
by seeds
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:16 pm
Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.
Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?
If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:09 am
by bahman
seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:07 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:16 pm
Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.
Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?
Yes.
seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:07 pm
If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______
My mind does not come into existence. My mind has existed since the beginning of time. My mind just had a chance to merge with my body and make me what I am right now.
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:14 am
by seeds
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:09 am
seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:07 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:16 pm
Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.
Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?
Yes.
seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:07 pm
If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______
My mind does not come into existence. My mind has existed since the beginning of time. My mind just had a chance to merge with my body and make me what I am right now.
When did time begin?
And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?
_______
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:03 pm
by bahman
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:09 am
seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:07 pm
Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?
Yes.
seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:07 pm
If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______
My mind does not come into existence. My mind has existed since the beginning of time. My mind just had a chance to merge with my body and make me what I am right now.
When did time begin?
When everything else excluding minds began to exist.
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:14 am
And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?
_______
I don't know. Perhaps I was a part of a fruit that my father ate.
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:29 pm
by seeds
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:14 am
And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:03 pm
I don't know. Perhaps I was a part of a fruit that my father ate.
I'm afraid that you and I have a completely different interpretation of what the term
"your mind" means.
_______
Re: Emergence, strong, weak
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:02 pm
by bahman
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:29 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:14 am
And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:03 pm
I don't know. Perhaps I was a part of a fruit that my father ate.
I'm afraid that you and I have a completely different interpretation of what the term
"your mind" means.
_______
What is mind to you?