Philosophy Now Forum

To mask or not to mask. Here is my opinion on this topic:

***** Please take OFF your mask to save grandma! *****

[This message is intended for our 'healthy vaccinated' people. If you are vaccinated but have an underlying condition (susceptible to the ill effects of covid), then this message is NOT for you.]

Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- The virus (viral particles) dies, and is permanently removed from the environment, thereby making the environment less virally contaminated and safer for vulnerable people.
C. -- This is a GOOD thing. Cleaning up (removing) the virus from the environment helps save the lives of those people that are too vulnerable to get vaccinated.

Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters a 'masked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- Nothing. The virus (viral particles) continues on its way, keeping the environment virally contaminated, thereby increasing the likelihood of "killing grandma", and prolonging and perpetuating this pandemic.

**********
Be rational. Don't adhere to the irrational game of "let the rare exceptions dictate the general rule". This only results in more harm than good.

Demanding that lifeguards no longer jump into the pool to save an infant who fell in the deep end for fear that the lifeguards themselves might drown (or accidentally drown the infant) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

Demanding that ambulance drivers no longer respond to the home or scene of an accident for fear of getting in an accident themselves (or accidentally killing someone) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

Demanding that healthy vaccinated people put on masks for fear of dying themselves (or killing someone else) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

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What say you?

RG1 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:38 pm Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- The virus (viral particles) dies, and is permanently removed from the environment, thereby making the environment less virally contaminated and safer for vulnerable people.

WAT?

Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant

There's a faundamental misunderstanding about the effects of the vaccine. It doesn't stop you from becoming infected; or spreading the virus - it stops you from becoming ill and dying from the virus. People with immunity (natural or vaccine-induced) have immune systems capable of managing the virus without incident.

Wearing a mask reduces the viral load you spread back into the environment. It reduces Grandma's risk of becoming infected.

RG1 wrote: Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- The virus (viral particles) dies, and is permanently removed from the environment, thereby making the environment less virally contaminated and safer for vulnerable people.

Skepdick wrote:There's a fundamental misunderstanding about the effects of the vaccine. It doesn't stop you from becoming infected; or spreading the virus - it stops you from becoming ill and dying from the virus. People with immunity (natural or vaccine-induced) have immune systems capable of managing the virus without incident.

Wearing a mask reduces the viral load you spread back into the environment. It reduces Grandma's risk of becoming infected.

Skepdick, this is playing the "exceptions" game (letting the rare "exceptions" dictate the "rule"). - There is no empirical evidence or scientific data that shows that healthy vaccinated 'unmasked' people generally spread the virus back into the environment. If you have that data, I would love to see it. I've only seen/heard about rare exceptions.

To spread the virus back into the environment, we must first be infected, and then replication must occur. In general, those with weak immune systems replicate the virus, whereas those with strong immune systems do not (except minimally in rare cases/exceptions). In general, healthy vaccinated people do not spread the virus. Again, if you have legitimate data that contradicts this truth, then I would love to see it.

Healthy vaccinated people who do NOT wear masks REMOVE viral contamination from the environment. ...this is GOOD.
Healthy vaccinated people who do wear masks DO NOT REMOVE viral contamination from the environment. ...this is BAD.

RG1 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:49 pm Skepdick, this is playing the "exceptions" game (letting the rare "exceptions" dictate the "rule"). - There is no empirical evidence or scientific data that shows that healthy vaccinated 'unmasked' people generally spread the virus back into the environment. If you have that data, I would love to see it. I've only seen/heard about rare exceptions.

To spread the virus back into the environment, we must first be infected, and then replication must occur. In general, those with weak immune systems replicate the virus, whereas those with strong immune systems do not (except minimally in rare cases/exceptions). In general, healthy vaccinated people do not spread the virus. Again, if you have legitimate data that contradicts this truth, then I would love to see it.

Healthy vaccinated people who do NOT wear masks REMOVE viral contamination from the environment. ...this is GOOD.
Healthy vaccinated people who do wear masks DO NOT REMOVE viral contamination from the environment. ...this is BAD.

I don't care about edge/corner cases (exceptions). Really. That's the nit-picker's game of entertaining endless minutia.

Vaccinated populations == less dying.
Unvaccinated populations == more dying.

While your society is 50/50 (some vaccinated, some unvaccinated) the precautionary principle applies.
Masks reduce the reach of your exhalations. Do you want us to spend effort/money and task scientists with proving this to you? Why?!?

Put a cloth on your face. Blow out a candle 20cm away from you.

Do vaccinated people spread the virus? I don't care! because if everyone is vaccinated - the virus is harmless.

Skepdick wrote:Masks reduce the reach of your exhalations. Do you want us to spend effort/money and task scientists with proving this to you? Why?!?

This is a non-sequitur (irrelevant). My point is that if a healthy vaccinated person wears a mask, then he/she cannot remove viral particles from the environment (the mask prevents this).

Skepdick wrote:...because if everyone is vaccinated - the virus is harmless.

Agreed. But the fact of the matter is that not everyone can be vaccinated.

Those that need the protection most of all (i.e. the highly vulnerable) are those that cannot receive a vaccination. (case in point -- my mother is 86 and has a lung condition; her doc told her to stay away from the vaccine!). Their only means of protection is by every healthy vaccinated person to rip off their mask and contribute to cleaning this viral contaminated environment. Be part of the solution not part of the problem.

RG1 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:30 pm This is a non-sequitur (irrelevant). My point is that if a healthy vaccinated person wears a mask, then he/she cannot remove viral particles from the environment (the mask prevents this).

Your idea in a nutshell is "using humans as viral filters". It's pretty lame.

The easiest way to conceptualise your error is this.

Take a cigar/cigarette (or something else that can help you visualise your breath/exhalation). Inhale deeply. Exhale all the smoke.
Now inhale ALL that smoke back. How much of what you put "out there" could you take back?

The second error in your conception is this: How long do you think the virus survives in open air?

RG1 wrote:My point is that if a healthy vaccinated person wears a mask, then he/she cannot remove viral particles from the environment (the mask prevents this).

Skepdick wrote:Your idea in a nutshell is "using humans as viral filters". It's pretty lame.

So then what happens when a mask-less healthy vaccinated person breathes in (into his respiratory system) air containing viral particles? Do these particles die, or do they come back out and infect someone else?

Skepdick wrote:The easiest way to conceptualise your error is this. Take a cigar/cigarette (or something else that can help you visualise your breath/exhalation). Inhale deeply. Exhale all the smoke.

Now inhale ALL that smoke back. How much of what you put "out there" could you take back?

So, are you saying when we breathe in viral particles, they come back out? ...if so, then nobody should get sick, ...ever.

Skepdick wrote:The second error in your conception is this: How long do you think the virus survives in open air?

Long enough to infect people, ...right? The actual time is dependent on the circumstances/environment (air/ventilation system, etc.). The particles can last up to 9-10 days on some surfaces, and they become airborne under certain circumstances.

RG1 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:10 pm So then what happens when a mask-less healthy vaccinated person breathes in (into his respiratory system) air containing viral particles? Do these particles die, or do they come back out and infect someone else?

If the viral load is sufficient they infect the vaccinated person, but their immune system deals with it and nothing serious happens.

RG1 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:10 pm So, are you saying when we breathe in viral particles, they come back out? ...if so, then nobody should get sick, ...ever.

What? Do you draw a distinction between getting infected and getting sick? It's not black and white.

There's a continuum at play.

The virus MAY or MAY NOT enter your body/cells/blood stream. That's infection.
The virur MAY or MAY NOT remain asymptomatic in the carrier.
The virus MAY or MAY NOT cause mild symptoms and you recover after a 10-14 days.
The virus MAY or MAY NOT cause more pronounced symptoms that keep you in bed for 10-14 days.
The virus MAY or MAY NOT cause severe symptoms which require medical intervention/intensive care.
The virus MAY or MAY NOT eventually result in your death.

RG1 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:10 pm Long enough to infect people, ...right?

See above. Infection is not what we are worried about. Complications resulting FROM the infection is what we are worried about.

If every SARS CoV-2 infection was asymptomatic humanity wouldn't care. It would be just another member of the harmless huaman Virome.

Skepdick, from what I've read, the amount of viral replication within the body is dependent on one's immune system. In other words, those with weak immune systems will replicate more than one with a marginal immune system, and those with strong healthy immune systems will have little to no replication.

RG1 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:38 pm Skepdick, from what I've read, the amount of viral replication within the body is dependent on one's immune system. In other words, those with weak immune systems will replicate more than one with a marginal immune system, and those with strong healthy immune systems will have little to no replication.

I don't know if that's true.

Hence the link to the paper in my first post.

“Censor This: Science Says Mask Mandates Don’t Work”
https://issuesinsights.com/2022/02/03/c ... dont-work/

Huh? Say what?
This must be fake news because all the little children in school must be masked.

Here’s at least a thousand words.

Stacey Abrams, no mask.

Whose 'grandma' am I supposed to be 'saving' and why would I want to?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:10 am Whose 'grandma' am I supposed to be 'saving' and why would I want to?

If you hold a handkerchief over your face when you sneeze there will be fewer of your viruses and airborne bacteria breathed in and becoming new focuses of infections. Better still would be to release exhalations to fresh mountain air. Then you could spray snot as much as you like.

What's needed is a music video of rugrats ripping off their masks during a syncopated dance, with something about "Brandon," worked into the lyrics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9AbeALNVkk