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Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:12 am
by bahman
Here we discuss the whole is infinite. Suppose that the whole is finite (let's call it W1). This means that the whole is bounded by something (let's call it B1). B1 could be infinite or finite. In the first case, B1+W1 is infinite. In the second case, B1+W1 is finite (let's call this W2). W2 is finite. This means that W2 is bounded by something (let's call it B2). ETC. It is easy to see that we end up with a series, WF=W1+B1+B2...+BF, where BF is the final boundary and F is the related index. It is obvious that WF (the whole) is infinite if the length of the series is finite or infinite. QED.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:26 am
by Age
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:06 am
Here we discuss the whole is infinite. Suppose that the whole is finite (let's call it W1). This means that the whole is bounded by something (let's call it B1). B1 could be infinite or finite.
LOL
You, managed ONCE MORE and AGAIN, to CONTRADICT your OWN writings, one sentence after another.
If we are discussing the whole as being infinite, then WHEN EXACTLY, HOW, and WHY would we, all of sudden, just SUPPOSE the whole is now finite?
Are we discussing the whole is 'infinite' or the whole is 'finite'?
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:06 am
In the first case, B1+W1 is infinite. In the second case, B1+W1 is finite (let's call this W2). W2 is finite. This means that W2 is bounded by something (let's call it B2). ETC. It is easy to see that we end up with a series, WF=W1+B1+B2...+BF, where BF is the final boundary and F is the related index. It is obvious that WF (the whole) is infinite if the length of the series is finite or infinite. QED.
From my perspective we end up with a series, and at the conclusion, WTF.
To 'me', you REALLY have a warped sense of, so called, "logical reasoning".
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:21 pm
by Terrapin Station
The boundary can simply be the edges of W1. You're assuming there would have to be something beyond the boundaries of W1, but there need not be.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:32 pm
by Skepdick
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:12 am
Here we discuss the whole is infinite. Suppose that the whole is finite (let's call it W1). This means that the whole is bounded by something (let's call it B1). B1 could be infinite or finite. In the first case, B1+W1 is infinite. In the second case, B1+W1 is finite (let's call this W2). W2 is finite. This means that W2 is bounded by something (let's call it B2). ETC. It is easy to see that we end up with a series, WF=W1+B1+B2...+BF, where BF is the final boundary and F is the related index. It is obvious that WF (the whole) is infinite if the length of the series is finite or infinite. QED.
Which infinity? There are
many of them.
The usual philosophical problem rears its head: how does language relate to the world? Which infinity is reality like?
There was a challenge amongst computer scientists (can't find the details now), to define the "largest possible number" such that the program compiles in some $upper_bounded time, and it can execute in some $finite_amount_of_memory.
This is so that the notion of "counting to infinity" can be bounded by the known limits of physics.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:38 pm
by bahman
Age wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:26 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:06 am
Here we discuss the whole is infinite. Suppose that the whole is finite (let's call it W1). This means that the whole is bounded by something (let's call it B1). B1 could be infinite or finite.
LOL
You, managed ONCE MORE and AGAIN, to CONTRADICT your OWN writings, one sentence after another.
If we are discussing the whole as being infinite, then WHEN EXACTLY, HOW, and WHY would we, all of sudden, just SUPPOSE the whole is now finite?
Are we discussing the whole is 'infinite' or the whole is 'finite'?
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:06 am
In the first case, B1+W1 is infinite. In the second case, B1+W1 is finite (let's call this W2). W2 is finite. This means that W2 is bounded by something (let's call it B2). ETC. It is easy to see that we end up with a series, WF=W1+B1+B2...+BF, where BF is the final boundary and F is the related index. It is obvious that WF (the whole) is infinite if the length of the series is finite or infinite. QED.
From my perspective we end up with a series, and at the conclusion, WTF.
To 'me', you REALLY have a warped sense of, so called, "logical reasoning".
I am that assuming that the whole is finite for sake of argument. This leads to the existence of a boundary that could be finite or infinite. Etc. In the end, I show that the whole is infinite.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:39 pm
by Skepdick
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:38 pm
I show that the whole is infinite.
That's not useful at all.
Which kind of infinite is it?
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:42 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:21 pm
The boundary can simply be the edges of W1. You're assuming there would have to be something beyond the boundaries of W1, but there need not be.
Yes, it is needed. Think of a sphere. You can tell that the surface is the boundary. But you need a three-dimensional space in order to imagine the sphere. The rest of the three-dimensional space in this case is a new boundary that is infinite.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:44 pm
by bahman
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:32 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:12 am
Here we discuss the whole is infinite. Suppose that the whole is finite (let's call it W1). This means that the whole is bounded by something (let's call it B1). B1 could be infinite or finite. In the first case, B1+W1 is infinite. In the second case, B1+W1 is finite (let's call this W2). W2 is finite. This means that W2 is bounded by something (let's call it B2). ETC. It is easy to see that we end up with a series, WF=W1+B1+B2...+BF, where BF is the final boundary and F is the related index. It is obvious that WF (the whole) is infinite if the length of the series is finite or infinite. QED.
Which infinity? There are
many of them.
The usual philosophical problem rears its head: how does language relate to the world? Which infinity is reality like?
There was a challenge amongst computer scientists (can't find the details now), to define the "largest possible number" such that the program compiles in some $upper_bounded time, and it can execute in some $finite_amount_of_memory.
This is so that the notion of "counting to infinity" can be bounded by the known limits of physics.
It is better to say that the whole is boundless.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:44 pm
by bahman
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:39 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:38 pm
I show that the whole is infinite.
That's not useful at all.
Which kind of infinite is it?
Infinity is not good as you notice and suggest. The whole is boundless.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:49 pm
by Skepdick
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:44 pm
Infinity is not good as you notice and suggest. The whole is boundless.
For all intents and purpose, the
observable universe is bounded e.g finite., even if the whole is boundless.
Which puts us in the domain of
finite model theory.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:01 pm
by bahman
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:49 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:44 pm
Infinity is not good as you notice and suggest. The whole is boundless.
For all intents and purpose, the
observable universe is bounded e.g finite., even if the whole is boundless.
Which puts us in the domain of
finite model theory.
Yes.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:04 pm
by Skepdick
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:01 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:49 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:44 pm
Infinity is not good as you notice and suggest. The whole is boundless.
For all intents and purpose, the
observable universe is bounded e.g finite., even if the whole is boundless.
Which puts us in the domain of
finite model theory.
Yes.
Great. Then your next intellectual expedition should be into
domain theory.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:17 pm
by Sculptor
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:12 am
Here we discuss the whole is infinite. Suppose that the whole is finite (let's call it W1). This means that the whole is bounded by something (let's call it B1). B1 could be infinite or finite. In the first case, B1+W1 is infinite. In the second case, B1+W1 is finite (let's call this W2). W2 is finite. This means that W2 is bounded by something (let's call it B2). ETC. It is easy to see that we end up with a series, WF=W1+B1+B2...+BF, where BF is the final boundary and F is the related index. It is obvious that WF (the whole) is infinite if the length of the series is finite or infinite. QED.
What you have here is a description of the concept of infinity.
The word "real" implies something beyond concepts.
You have here nothing which could advance a claim of reality.
I can describe a unicorn, that does not mean it exists.
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:26 pm
by Skepdick
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:17 pm
The word "real" implies something beyond concepts.
So it implies woo woo?
When you transcend your meat suit, tell us what there is beyond concepts.
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:17 pm
I can describe a unicorn, that does not mean it exists.
It does.
In the most trivial sense you made it exist. In your mind and in your language.
In the most non-trivial sense, if the universe is infinite then everything exists necessarily by sheer luck.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
Re: Infinity is real
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:26 pm
by bahman
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:17 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:12 am
Here we discuss the whole is infinite. Suppose that the whole is finite (let's call it W1). This means that the whole is bounded by something (let's call it B1). B1 could be infinite or finite. In the first case, B1+W1 is infinite. In the second case, B1+W1 is finite (let's call this W2). W2 is finite. This means that W2 is bounded by something (let's call it B2). ETC. It is easy to see that we end up with a series, WF=W1+B1+B2...+BF, where BF is the final boundary and F is the related index. It is obvious that WF (the whole) is infinite if the length of the series is finite or infinite. QED.
What you have here is a description of the concept of infinity.
No. I am describing reality.
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:17 pm
The word "real" implies something beyond concepts.
Real means actually existing.
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:17 pm
You have here nothing which could advance a claim of reality.
That is not correct. Please read the following comment.
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:17 pm
I can describe a unicorn, that does not mean it exists.
Well, if the whole is boundless then unicorns for sure exist. What else can exist? Anything that you could possibly imagine: Dragon, Dracula, etc.