Philosophy Now Forum

I have just published an article exploring Syndicalism over on Malady:

https://philosophical-malady.blogspot.c ... alism.html

I have briefly described the historical origins of Syndicalism, what it is and the failures of previous "socialist" experiments, however the main thing I want to do is to pose the inevitable question:

Could syndicalism have been the remedy for our current situation?

If we had gone Bakunin's way back at the First International would history have played out differently?

Who knows.

the cure is a bullet

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:31 pm the cure is a bullet

-Imp

Who gets the bullet?

the one whose sensibilities are most offended...

-Imp

Syndicalism: the establishment of worker-owned and worker-controlled organisations or unions, proletarian ownership of the workplace, advancement of workers’ demands through strikes or other direct action and use of the general strike as the ultimate revolutionary armament, through which capitalism would be overthrown.

joe wants to build widgets...to that end he secures the capital to build a factory...he hires workers, skilled and unskilled, to man the factory

syndicalism sez even though joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under (he'll bear the entirety of the failure) he ought to give the workers an equal say in how the factory operates, yeah?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:38 am Syndicalism: the establishment of worker-owned and worker-controlled organisations or unions, proletarian ownership of the workplace, advancement of workers’ demands through strikes or other direct action and use of the general strike as the ultimate revolutionary armament, through which capitalism would be overthrown.

joe wants to build widgets...to that end he secures the capital to build a factory...he hires workers, skilled and unskilled, to man the factory

syndicalism sez even though joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under (he'll bear the entirety of the failure) he ought to give the workers an equal say in how the factory operates, yeah?

All we are is dust in the wind..., ...just a drop of water in an endless sea, all we do, crumbles to the ground they we refuse to see...

Quakers, Mennonites , Shakers, Amish. Just a few examples of the relatively unspoiled, unlike the Me, Me, Me people, you know, Right Wingers.

SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:17 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:38 am Syndicalism: the establishment of worker-owned and worker-controlled organisations or unions, proletarian ownership of the workplace, advancement of workers’ demands through strikes or other direct action and use of the general strike as the ultimate revolutionary armament, through which capitalism would be overthrown.

joe wants to build widgets...to that end he secures the capital to build a factory...he hires workers, skilled and unskilled, to man the factory

syndicalism sez even though joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under (he'll bear the entirety of the failure) he ought to give the workers an equal say in how the factory operates, yeah?

All we are is dust in the wind..., ...just a drop of water in an endless sea, all we do, crumbles to the ground they we refuse to see...

Quakers, Mennonites , Shakers, Amish. Just a few examples of the relatively unspoiled, unlike the Me, Me, Me people, you know, Right Wingers.

don't know what crappy songs and religious folks have to do with the topic, but: okay

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:38 am syndicalism sez even though joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under (he'll bear the entirety of the failure) he ought to give the workers an equal say in how the factory operates, yeah?

Has joe ever heard of limited liability?

When joe makes his company public he does so by selling shares in his business.

Once joe sells a percentage of his business then the shareholders get to decide how the factory operates.

Of course, if joe doesn't want other people's money he can run a privately held company.

Buuut, then any person on the labour market needs to ask themselves: "why the fuck would I work for joe for a salary, if Skepdick is offering me a salary AND shares?"

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:43 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:38 am syndicalism sez even though joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under (he'll bear the entirety of the failure) he ought to give the workers an equal say in how the factory operates, yeah?

Has joe ever heard of limited liability?

When joe makes his company public he does so by selling shares in his business.

Once joe sells a percentage of his business then the shareholders get to decide how the factory operates.

Of course, if joe doesn't want other people's money he can run a privately held company.

Buuut, then any person on the labour market needs to ask themselves: "why the fuck would I work for joe for a salary, if Skepdick is offering me a salary AND shares?"

don't know what that has to do with my question to Mustapha, but: okay

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:06 pm don't know what that has to do with my question to Mustapha, but: okay

Trivially: your question is wrong.

syndicalism doesn't say that "joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under". The shareholders will suffer losses too (because they bought shares).
Joe won't bear bear the entirety of the failure - it will be shared. With the shareholders.
Joe need not give equal say in how the factory operates. Only proportionate (to their shares).

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:09 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:06 pm don't know what that has to do with my question to Mustapha, but: okay

Trivially: your question is wrong.

syndicalism doesn't say that "joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under". The shareholders will suffer losses too (because they bought shares).
Joe won't bear bear the entirety of the failure - it will be shared. With the shareholders.
Joe need not give equal say in how the factory operates. Only proportionate (to their shares).

this is Mustapha's defintion...

Syndicalism: the establishment of worker-owned and worker-controlled organisations or unions, proletarian ownership of the workplace, advancement of workers’ demands through strikes or other direct action and use of the general strike as the ultimate revolutionary armament, through which capitalism would be overthrown.

...taken from his article and reproduced in my post up-thread

got a problem with it? take it up with him

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:14 pm this is Mustapha's defintion...

proletarian ownership of the workplace...

got a problem with it? take it up with him

I don't have a problem with the definition. I. have a problem with your misinterpretation.

proletarian ownership of the workplace means exactly the same fucking thing as "workers are shareholders".

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:19 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:14 pm this is Mustapha's defintion...

proletarian ownership of the workplace...

got a problem with it? take it up with him

I don't have a problem with the definition. I. have a problem with your misinterpretation.

proletarian ownership of the workplace means exactly the same fucking thing as "workers are shareholders".

we'll have to see if Mustapha agrees with you

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:38 am Syndicalism: the establishment of worker-owned and worker-controlled organisations or unions, proletarian ownership of the workplace, advancement of workers’ demands through strikes or other direct action and use of the general strike as the ultimate revolutionary armament, through which capitalism would be overthrown.

joe wants to build widgets...to that end he secures the capital to build a factory...he hires workers, skilled and unskilled, to man the factory

syndicalism sez even though joe is utterly responsible if the factory goes under (he'll bear the entirety of the failure) he ought to give the workers an equal say in how the factory operates, yeah?

No, syndicalism says there is no Joe. His role is replaced by that of the collective which owns, operates and directs the enterprise. There used to be Joe, but he went brankrupt when all the workers in the world refused to make widgets until they were given collective ownership of the factory that makes them, Joe is now just the name of a guy on the assembly line (he wasn't murdered, this is not Bolshevism).

Whether it's possible for the enterprise to fail in the traditional capitalist bankruptcy sense is dependent on the brand of syndicalism applied (is there such a thing as a debt upon which to default, who directs the markets into which the goods are sold). Supposedly the worst case scenario is that everyone stops making widgets there and goes elsewhere to do something else.

Utopian simplifications such as syndicalism (and your minarchist thing too) never really bother answering questions about technocratic subjects like bankruptcy, how to direct finance streams, total factor prodictivity, innovation and destruction, and so on. They are all about the magical thinking. Having answers to such questions is why modern capitalism, even with all the bits that misters Mond and Quirk don't like, does actually work.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:31 pm Having answers to such questions is why modern capitalism, even with all the bits that misters Mond and Quirk don't like, does actually work.

Does it work because of capitalism, or is it capitalism because it works?

It's a self-organizing system, in which a bunch of hairless apes think they have way more control over the system itself than they actually do.