Philosophy Now Forum

This is pretty simple. We can freely decide (let's assume that there is free will for the sake of discussion). Our decision, therefore, is not caused by something else since otherwise, they are not free. Therefore, we are uncaused cause.

The ACTUAL Truth, which you are TRYING TO describe and explain here is NOT that far off from where you are now.

However, you NEVER get there while you continue to HOLD ONTO your current BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

If you were at all prepared to just LOOK AT this a little bit differently, then you WILL SEE WHY you did NOT reach 'there', previously and HOW you have NOT reached 'there' YET.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am This is pretty simple. We can freely decide (let's assume that there is free will for the sake of discussion). Our decision, therefore, is not caused by something else since otherwise, they are not free. Therefore, we are uncaused cause.

So assume the thing you are trying to prove? Well done sir, never thought of trying that...

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am This is pretty simple. We can freely decide (let's assume that there is free will for the sake of discussion). Our decision, therefore, is not caused by something else since otherwise, they are not free. Therefore, we are uncaused cause.

Getting serious now...

If we are an uncaused cause, what caused you to have perceptions of the world which you make decisions based on? Or do your perceptions have absolutely no effect on your mind?

If there is an apple which you see and decide to eat, didn’t the perception of the apple cause you to want to eat it? And didn’t the impression of that apple come from an external stimulus?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am Mind is uncaused cause.

Stating something is uncaused is one kettle of fish.

To then state that the thing that had no cause is also a cause is quite another.

So.

You are attempting to convince (at least me) that your mind, not only is not a result of causality, but also that it exists to yet CAUSE.

(in my case of sitting here and reading - much annoyance at such a ridiculous statement)

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:06 am The ACTUAL Truth, which you are TRYING TO describe and explain here is NOT that far off from where you are now.

However, you NEVER get there while you continue to HOLD ONTO your current BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

If you were at all prepared to just LOOK AT this a little bit differently, then you WILL SEE WHY you did NOT reach 'there', previously and HOW you have NOT reached 'there' YET.

First, what is wrong with my argument? Second, what is the truth that you know that I don't know?

Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:10 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am This is pretty simple. We can freely decide (let's assume that there is free will for the sake of discussion). Our decision, therefore, is not caused by something else since otherwise, they are not free. Therefore, we are uncaused cause.

So assume the thing you are trying to prove? Well done sir, never thought of trying that...

Well, what I am trying to say that assuming that you are free then it follows that you are uncaused cause. I am happy that this is obvious given the definitions.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am This is pretty simple. We can freely decide (let's assume that there is free will for the sake of discussion). Our decision, therefore, is not caused by something else since otherwise, they are not free. Therefore, we are uncaused cause.

Getting serious now...

If we are an uncaused cause, what caused you to have perceptions of the world which you make decisions based on? Or do your perceptions have absolutely no effect on your mind?

If there is an apple which you see and decide to eat, didn’t the perception of the apple cause you to want to eat it? And didn’t the impression of that apple come from an external stimulus?

We need to perceive in order to respond. The point is that we are free to respond.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:41 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am Mind is uncaused cause.

Stating something is uncaused is one kettle of fish.

To then state that the thing that had no cause is also a cause is quite another.

So.

You are attempting to convince (at least me) that your mind, not only is not a result of causality, but also that it exists to yet CAUSE.

(in my case of sitting here and reading - much annoyance at such a ridiculous statement)

Do you believe that you are free?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:21 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:41 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am Mind is uncaused cause.

Stating something is uncaused is one kettle of fish.

To then state that the thing that had no cause is also a cause is quite another.

So.

You are attempting to convince (at least me) that your mind, not only is not a result of causality, but also that it exists to yet CAUSE.

(in my case of sitting here and reading - much annoyance at such a ridiculous statement)

Do you believe that you are free?

No. But do I believe I have more freedom than anyone on this forum? I THINK yes.

..in any case, my freedom appears nothing to do with this statement of yours of a MIND being an UNCAUSED CAUSE.

..please extrapolate.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:17 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:27 am This is pretty simple. We can freely decide (let's assume that there is free will for the sake of discussion). Our decision, therefore, is not caused by something else since otherwise, they are not free. Therefore, we are uncaused cause.

Getting serious now...

If we are an uncaused cause, what caused you to have perceptions of the world which you make decisions based on? Or do your perceptions have absolutely no effect on your mind?

If there is an apple which you see and decide to eat, didn’t the perception of the apple cause you to want to eat it? And didn’t the impression of that apple come from an external stimulus?

We need to perceive in order to respond. The point is that we are free to respond.

So the freedom in response is, response a, b, c..... or no response.

Who creates these responses? What if these responses are limited by past responses?

When we include language in our ability to respond, there is a combinatorial explosion, such that it seems like there is an infinite variety of responses available to us, and we choose from these possibilities. But, we don’t respond with non words, only words. So that is a limitation. And we only respond with combinations of words which make sense, which is a further limitation.

Further applied to movement, our freedom is determined by the possible physical movements depending on our current physical position. If my leg is all the way forward, it can now only move backward. That is a limitation, same with my arms.

But, we don’t really choose to move in this way most of the time, most of the time our choice is object based in the world. We see something, and we move towards it. When we want to pick something up, we don’t consciously decide to move our arm, in fact our arm moves of its own accord given the desire to attain the object. As the hand approaches the object, we don’t consciously decide to close the fingers around the object, the do this themselves, given the goal of picking up the object.

So, if we do have any control, it is more over the goals themselves, rather that the actual execution of the goal. We control the intentions... sometimes. When you are hungry, you can try not to want to eat, but, it is very difficult. The default state of your being when hunger exists is to eat. To choose not to eat is to enact an opposing force to the need to eat. To apply control over automatic eating behaviour. We control this, or at least, we try. Mostly we give in.

So. It seems we have veto power, if anything. We are the ability to do otherwise, based on some higher goal. We are the cortex trying to control the lower brain, even if not always successfully.

But, are free to try, even if we sometimes fail. We are like a person riding a bull, trying to get it under control. Maybe this control is entirely illusory... in the case of the bull rider, there is no control.

Maybe we are also just along for the ride.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:10 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:06 am The ACTUAL Truth, which you are TRYING TO describe and explain here is NOT that far off from where you are now.

However, you NEVER get there while you continue to HOLD ONTO your current BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

If you were at all prepared to just LOOK AT this a little bit differently, then you WILL SEE WHY you did NOT reach 'there', previously and HOW you have NOT reached 'there' YET.

First, what is wrong with my argument?

Just about ALL of it. It is based on and AROUND 'circular begging', 'circular logic', and/or 'circular reasoning'. Take your pick.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:10 pm Second, what is the truth that you know that I don't know?

That there is just One Mind ONLY, within EVERY body, while at the same time there are also individual and separated sets of thoughts, within individual and separate human bodies, which have just been wrongly labeled and misnamed 'minds'.

And, 'this' can ACTUALLY be PROVEN to be True, Right, and Correct through True 'logical reasoning'.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:17 pm

Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:13 pm
Getting serious now...

If we are an uncaused cause, what caused you to have perceptions of the world which you make decisions based on? Or do your perceptions have absolutely no effect on your mind?

If there is an apple which you see and decide to eat, didn’t the perception of the apple cause you to want to eat it? And didn’t the impression of that apple come from an external stimulus?

We need to perceive in order to respond. The point is that we are free to respond.

So the freedom in response is, response a, b, c..... or no response.

Who creates these responses? What if these responses are limited by past responses?

When we include language in our ability to respond, there is a combinatorial explosion, such that it seems like there is an infinite variety of responses available to us, and we choose from these possibilities. But, we don’t respond with non words, only words. So that is a limitation. And we only respond with combinations of words which make sense, which is a further limitation.

And as I say, (and which you have so well explained here); Having the ABILITY 'to choose' is FREEDOM, or FREE WILL in that 'age old' discussion. But, we are ALL ONLY ABLE to choose from the preexisting thoughts, which exist in language/words, and which are already within the body.

In other words, we can ONLY respond with words that are ALREADY KNOWN.

These preexisting thoughts, views, opinions, assumptions, beliefs, et cetera, which exist in words, have come from previous experiences, and thus are predetermined. Therefore, we ALL have 'free will', which is just the ABILITY to choose, but this ABILITY is limited by our predetermined, and deterministic, thoughts, which are ALREADY preexisting within the body/brain.

So, we are ALL absolutely 'FREE to CHOOSE', but we obviously can ONLY CHOOSE from 'that', which ALREADY is consciously KNOWN, the limited. We, obviously, can NOT YET choose from 'that', which we do NOT YET ALREADY, consciously, KNOW about, thee unlimited.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am Further applied to movement, our freedom is determined by the possible physical movements depending on our current physical position. If my leg is all the way forward, it can now only move backward. That is a limitation, same with my arms.

We are ALL limited by our CURRENT 'ability'. And, although we are 'ABLE' to CHOOSE, and are 'ABLE' to IMAGINE, INVENT, PLAN, and CREATE, we still are LIMITED by our CURRENT understanding AND knowledge.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am But, we don’t really choose to move in this way most of the time, most of the time our choice is object based in the world. We see something, and we move towards it. When we want to pick something up, we don’t consciously decide to move our arm, in fact our arm moves of its own accord given the desire to attain the object.

But what we 'desire' and 'want' is, again, of our own FREE CHOOSING. But to make this MORE correct, this is, again, of adults own FREE CHOOSING.

If an adult FEELS or SAYS that they do NOT have ABSOLUTE and FULL CONTROL, then they are just TRYING TO 'relinquish' their True RESPONSIBILITIES in Life.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am As the hand approaches the object, we don’t consciously decide to close the fingers around the object, the do this themselves, given the goal of picking up the object.

It will be found that it is NOT the case that 'you' do not 'consciously' decide to close the fingers in this example. What is ACTUALLY True is that the 'decision' is NOT 'consciously' being NOTICED nor being made AWARE OF.

ONLY when ALL 'thoughts', which control ALL movements of a body, are being NOTICED, then that is then when that 'one' is taking FULL responsibility for ALL of their behaviors.

If an animal body reaches out to, and does, pick some 'thing' up, then this is because there is some 'thing' that 'wants' and/or 'desires' that 'thing'.

The body just does NOT move for NO reason AT ALL.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am So, if we do have any control, it is more over the goals themselves, rather that the actual execution of the goal.

This is just an ATTEMPT for NOT taking FULL responsibility for ALL of the behaviors of that body.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am We control the intentions... sometimes. When you are hungry, you can try not to want to eat, but, it is very difficult.

Because of the four ONLY 'needs' in Life, the human body 'needs' 'things', otherwise it will stop breathing and stop pumping blood, so the body will give signs to REVEAL what it 'needs'.

So, if the body 'needs' food, then it will 'feel' a certain way, which some refer to as being 'hungry', but a bodily 'need' can NOT be 'suppressed' without causing some harm or damage to that body.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am The default state of your being when hunger exists is to eat. To choose not to eat is to enact an opposing force to the need to eat. To apply control over automatic eating behaviour. We control this, or at least, we try. Mostly we give in.

'we' HAVE TO GIVE IN, otherwise the body will stop pumping blood and stop breathing. And, we, here in this forum, KNOW what happens to 'us' when the body STOPS doing these things.

Although MOST, in this forum, when this is being written, do NOT YET have a clue, let alone KNOW, who, and what, 'we' ACTUALLY ARE, 'we' KNOW what happens when the body STOPS breathing and STOPS pumping blood.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am So. It seems we have veto power, if anything. We are the ability to do otherwise, based on some higher goal. We are the cortex trying to control the lower brain, even if not always successfully.

When 'you' discover, or learn, and understand who and what 'we' ARE, then 'you' will KNOW who is in CONTROL and who and what is controlling who and what here.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am But, are free to try, even if we sometimes fail. We are like a person riding a bull, trying to get it under control. Maybe this control is entirely illusory... in the case of the bull rider, there is no control.

There IS CONTROL, and 'this' CONTROL/LER is CONTROLLING, CAUSING, and Creating ALL 'things' in a particular way for the BEST outcome for ALL 'things'.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:25 am Maybe we are also just along for the ride.

It could be said; NEVER a Truer word has been expressed here, in this forum.

But when it is REVEALED the very reason WHY ALL of 'you', human beings, are 'just along for the ride', in the way that 'you' are, then ALL will be UNDERSTOOD, and thus Truly FORGIVEN.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am So, we are ALL absolutely 'FREE to CHOOSE', but we obviously can ONLY CHOOSE from 'that', which ALREADY is consciously KNOWN, the limited. We, obviously, can NOT YET choose from 'that', which we do NOT YET ALREADY, consciously, KNOW about, thee unlimited.

Yet sometimes when we get out of its way, this unknown will allow or bring forth just what needs to happen, an example is the case of flow states. Choice in this case is a hindrance.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am But what we 'desire' and 'want' is, again, of our own FREE CHOOSING. But to make this MORE correct, this is, again, of adults own FREE CHOOSING.

If an adult FEELS or SAYS that they do NOT have ABSOLUTE and FULL CONTROL, then they are just TRYING TO 'relinquish' their True RESPONSIBILITIES in Life.

We may freely choose in some limited sense, but I would argue that we don’t choose what we want. We only choose how to get what we want. What we want isn’t really in our domain of choice. But, because we have knowledge of the consequences of our choices, and can foresee any negative consequences, we can veto our wants, and even needs for the sake of some other more imposing consequence of our choices and actions. This is why, for instance, women can walk freely and relatively safely in a society even when surrounded by men. The threat of punishment for breaking this rule of safety for others acts as a means of motivation to suppress less than moral drives, wants, and needs.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am It will be found that it is NOT the case that 'you' do not 'consciously' decide to close the fingers in this example. What is ACTUALLY True is that the 'decision' is NOT 'consciously' being NOTICED nor being made AWARE OF.

ONLY when ALL 'thoughts', which control ALL movements of a body, are being NOTICED, then that is then when that 'one' is taking FULL responsibility for ALL of their behaviors.

If an animal body reaches out to, and does, pick some 'thing' up, then this is because there is some 'thing' that 'wants' and/or 'desires' that 'thing'.

The body just does NOT move for NO reason AT ALL.

It is a case of distraction. If our minds become distracted from the task at hand being performed, then conscious control (or at least the illusion of it) is given over to automatic behaviour. Of course in theory, we could become “present” to that task and by virtue be in full ‘control’ of those actions, but, our tendency for our minds to wander means this is usually not the case. But yes, I would agree in theory it is possible, and, beneficial.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am 'we' HAVE TO GIVE IN, otherwise the body will stop pumping blood and stop breathing. And, we, here in this forum, KNOW what happens to 'us' when the body STOPS doing these things.

Although MOST, in this forum, when this is being written, do NOT YET have a clue, let alone KNOW, who, and what, 'we' ACTUALLY ARE, 'we' KNOW what happens when the body STOPS breathing and STOPS pumping blood.

I was less so referring to those direct necessities of life, and more to cases of impulse control, such as lust, overeating, sloth, etc. These are cases where the body itself is demanding something, yet is still allowing some level of control over the attainment of them. Yet, there is far more authority from bottom up than top down in these cases of ‘mind over matter’.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am So, we are ALL absolutely 'FREE to CHOOSE', but we obviously can ONLY CHOOSE from 'that', which ALREADY is consciously KNOWN, the limited. We, obviously, can NOT YET choose from 'that', which we do NOT YET ALREADY, consciously, KNOW about, thee unlimited.

Yet sometimes when we get out of its way, this unknown will allow or bring forth just what needs to happen, an example is the case of flow states. Choice in this case is a hindrance.

Yes VERY True.

But, 'hindrance', itself, is NOT necessarily negative, wrong, NOR bad at all. But I take your point.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am But what we 'desire' and 'want' is, again, of our own FREE CHOOSING. But to make this MORE correct, this is, again, of adults own FREE CHOOSING.

If an adult FEELS or SAYS that they do NOT have ABSOLUTE and FULL CONTROL, then they are just TRYING TO 'relinquish' their True RESPONSIBILITIES in Life.

We may freely choose in some limited sense, but I would argue that we don’t choose what we want.

You would have to provide some examples here, and then these examples would have to suffice for EVERY thing else also.

Of course, there are some 'things' 'we', as a human being, can FREELY choose to want, and there are some 'things' that 'we' can NOT and do NOT FREELY choose to want.

For example, the innate WANT to live in Peace and in Harmony with EVERY one, which we are ALL born with, is NOT what 'we' chose to want, 'in the beginning'. (Or, did 'we'?) This could only be Truly KNOWN once 'we' can answer the question, 'Who are 'we'?' properly AND correctly, and for ONCE and for ALL.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am We only choose how to get what we want. What we want isn’t really in our domain of choice. But, because we have knowledge of the consequences of our choices, and can foresee any negative consequences, we can veto our wants, and even needs for the sake of some other more imposing consequence of our choices and actions. This is why, for instance, women can walk freely and relatively safely in a society even when surrounded by men. The threat of punishment for breaking this rule of safety for others acts as a means of motivation to suppress less than moral drives, wants, and needs.

To me, this example is of and from a VERY narrowed and short sighted view of things.

The female gender of the species human being have been 'walking freely' for millions of years without ANY such "issue" as you have portrayed here.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am It will be found that it is NOT the case that 'you' do not 'consciously' decide to close the fingers in this example. What is ACTUALLY True is that the 'decision' is NOT 'consciously' being NOTICED nor being made AWARE OF.

ONLY when ALL 'thoughts', which control ALL movements of a body, are being NOTICED, then that is then when that 'one' is taking FULL responsibility for ALL of their behaviors.

If an animal body reaches out to, and does, pick some 'thing' up, then this is because there is some 'thing' that 'wants' and/or 'desires' that 'thing'.

The body just does NOT move for NO reason AT ALL.

It is a case of distraction.

This is EXACTLY what I just said.

Only when the thoughts, within, which is what CONTROLS ALL behaviors of the human body are NOT being NOTICED, then that is when this 'one' is NOT taking FULL responsibility for their OWN behaviors. So, what this would OBVIOUSLY mean is when that 'one' is 'DISTRACTED'.

If 'one' is NOT taking FULL NOTICE of some 'thing', then they are BEING DISTRACTED by some 'thing' ELSE. Which is NOT at all surprising NOR unexpected, especially considering just how many 'things' there are in this infinite AND eternal Universe to be DISTRACTED by.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am If our minds become distracted from the task at hand being performed, then conscious control (or at least the illusion of it) is given over to automatic behaviour.

If 'we' removed the completely UNNECESSARY and DECEIVING word 'mind' here and replaced it with the 'we' word, for the time being, then what you say here is just about EXACTLY what I have said.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am Of course in theory, we could become “present” to that task and by virtue be in full ‘control’ of those actions, but, our tendency for our minds to wander means this is usually not the case. But yes, I would agree in theory it is possible, and, beneficial.

If concentration and FULL 'control' can be done for even one second or shorter, then it can BE DONE. If ANY one has concentrated on, been 'present', and/or NOTICED the thoughts, which are actually 'controlling' the behavior at the time of the behavior, then this has ALREADY BEEN DONE. And, if 'it' has ALREADY BEEN DONE, then it is NOT just a 'theory' at all. It is just ANOTHER behavior with which practice 'one' can become BETTER at, and even amusingly start to just become a NATURAL HABIT.

By the way, the word 'actions' here does NOT fit in PERFECTLY with 'this' NOR with the BIG Picture of ALL-OF-THIS. But this is such a minor thing for now to even be concerned with at all. And, your use of the words, "our tendency for our "minds" to wander means ...", is just ANOTHER attempt at NOT taking FULL RESPONSIBILITY and of just TRYING TO blame some 'thing' else for our OWN behavior.

Saying, 'our' tendency and 'our' "mind" is just TRYING TO blame NOT 'us', "ourselves", but some 'thing' OTHER 'thing' than 'us', for OUR OWN DOING.

This here is still way to subliminal and subtle for most of the human beings, in the days of when this was written, to even RECOGNIZE and NOTICE, let alone understand and understand FULLY. But this was just how things were, back in those days.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:06 am 'we' HAVE TO GIVE IN, otherwise the body will stop pumping blood and stop breathing. And, we, here in this forum, KNOW what happens to 'us' when the body STOPS doing these things.

Although MOST, in this forum, when this is being written, do NOT YET have a clue, let alone KNOW, who, and what, 'we' ACTUALLY ARE, 'we' KNOW what happens when the body STOPS breathing and STOPS pumping blood.

I was less so referring to those direct necessities of life, and more to cases of impulse control, such as lust, overeating, sloth, etc.

If I recall correctly the word 'need' or 'necessity' was used somewhere and so I was just referring to 'that'.

'Wants' and 'impulse control' become REALLY very insignificant 'things' when once HOW the Mind and the brain actually work, and 'we' ALL start working TOGETHER.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am These are cases where the body itself is demanding something, yet is still allowing some level of control over the attainment of them.

The body, itself, NEVER 'wants' to 'overeat'. By definition, the ' 'over'-eat ' is a True sign of this fact. The person within the body has just associated 'good' feelings/emotions when on previous occasions of eating and how the taste of that food then made them 'feel' a certain way, which will be found and discovered was when they were usually feeling down or bad. A significant amount of adult human beings eat, in the days when this is being written, mostly for taste and NOT because the body 'needs' to. And the only REAL reason WHY human beings feel the 'need' to want to eat MORE or 'over-eat' is because they are feeling 'bad'/'empty'/'alone' in regards to some 'thing' else, which they are NOT receiving.

The body, itself, does NOT 'lust' after ANY thing. Although it can be said that there is a HUGE urge within the body to copulate and procreate. This NATURAL WANT and DESIRE is up there with the WANT and DESIRE to breathe, drink, eat, and be SEEN and RECOGNIZED. Now, AFTER as many children as one, or a couple, decide is ENOUGH, then ANY and ALL sex/lust is just PURELY of and from the person WITHIN the body and NOT from the body, itself. Which again comes down to just wanting/doing some 'thing' which is just replacing the 'thing' that one is NOT ALREADY getting or receiving.

The body WANTS to rest and ACTUALLY IS a VERY NECESSARY part of living a longer and more Truly productive and healthier life. "Sloth" is just a human being made up word, containing a purposely negative connotation to make people WANT to work MORE, just for MONEY. When that labeled is placed on human beings it is done so with the intention to make that person feel 'bad' about "them" 'self'. The more money 'richer' people are or the more controlling, and lack of a better word now, more "powerful" people are, then the MORE they want 'you' to BELIEVE you are NOT worthy and just a "sloth. Think; governments, companies, bosses, religions, royalties, et cetera and how the ONLY way that they can obtain money, and continually obtain more and more money, is BY and THROUGH 'you' ALONE. These ones can only do this by making ALL of the 'you' ones, UNDER THEM, BELIEVE that you are a "lazy SLOTH" if you do NOT keep working harder and harder to keep making more and more money. Most adults, in the days of when this was being written, REALLY did NOT see that the work they were doing to obtain money was just so that these 'systems' could take money AWAY from 'them'. And, AGAIN, when people are feeling 'down' or feeling 'bad', 'worthless', or 'depressed', then what they have learned from past experiences is that BUYING 'things' makes them feel 'up', 'better', 'good', 'worthy', and not so 'depressed'. So, they would actually go to work MORE, REALLY for "others", but also so that they can get MORE and MORE money, and whatever money they can get to keep for "themselves", they could and then would go straight out and by MORE 'things', so they would at least TRY TO feel 'better' and just ATTEMPT to replace that 'thing' what they feel they have NOT YET got.

'Impulse control' is just associated with this 'wanting' to do some 'thing' to replace that 'thing' that they have NOT got or are NOT getting.

If it is the case that the body is demanding some 'thing' here, then what that 'thing' IS that it is NOT getting human beings use their past experiences as a subliminal guidance as to what to do and seek out to get what 'it' is the body is NOT YET getting NOR receiving.

By the way, 'love' is that 'thing' and when 'love' is NOT being gotten enough of or is NOT YET been got, then human beings REPLACE this 'thing' known as 'love' with the 'love of' some other 'thing', which can be eating and/or overeating, sex or masturbating, laziness or exercise, gambling, drinking, drugging, and even working. Absolutely ANY 'thing' that ANY one is doing for the 'love of 'it/doing it', then are they wanting/doing it because it is healthy for them and for the well being of them and ALL around them, or are they wanting/doing that 'thing' just to REPLACE the 'thing' that they, and the body Truly WANTS, DESIRES, and ACTUALLY 'NEEDS?

Which is just 'attention', itself.

Attention is an ACTUAL 'need' and without attention one, literally, whittles away and dies. But although 'attention', itself, is a NEED, and ANY one can live on ANY kind of 'attention' even unwanted and undesired attention, it is still 'attention' and ANY attention at all is BETTER than NO attention at all.

What 'love' IS, is just the Right kind (of) attention. And without love, then what we learn to do is do whatever it takes and is that replaces that FEELING of 'being loved, with the 'love of' some 'thing' ANY 'thing' else.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:06 am Yet, there is far more authority from bottom up than top down in these cases of ‘mind over matter’.

Because there is ONLY One Mind, and the human body, with its wants and desires, is literally made up of 'matter', then when there is universal and uniform agreement of what is Truly Right and Truly Wrong in Life, then 'we', collectively, can work TOGETHER, which will provide ALL the True WANTS, NEEDS, and DESIRES, literally, for EVERY body and thus for EVERY one, and it is then this One who is thee True Controller/Creator of ALL-OF-THIS.

Literally, Mind over matter, is when 'we' can begin to live in True Peace and Harmony together as One. But as you have so rightly pointed out the physical has its 'needs', 'wants' and 'desires', which through a Universal process of CHANGE and Creation of physical 'matter' is how 'we', the LIVING Being within, have gotten to be HERE, where 'we' are RIGHT NOW, at ANY time.