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Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:08 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Personal judgments and decisions made by individuals [in real life or from thought experiments] related to moral elements are not Morality Per se.
These are subjective opinions and beliefs of the individual[s] and they are not moral facts.

Examples of judgments and decisions claimed to be related to morality are those casuistry cases, e.g. the Trolley Problems that question whether it is immoral or moral to kill one fat person instead of 10 on a rail line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

To based 'morality' on judgments and decisions that are supposedly 'moral' is not practical at all. It is impossible for every person to pause to think or argue out a judgement and decision in most cases where a choice of action is required, especially in a short instance.
In addition, human life is so complex that one cannot think of and practice all possible 'moral' situations.

If one make a personal judgment, say, abortion is not morally wrong based on one's strong reason, that is not a moral fact and not morality per se.
It is a fact one made a judgment about abortion, but what is judged 'abortion is not morally wrong' is not a moral fact.
Most will agree the above a subjective opinion or belief.

Since personal judgments and decisions are not morality per se, we need to define what is morality.
Here is a definition of morality in general, [there are more refined definition than the one below].
Morality (from Latin: moralitas, lit. 'manner, character, proper behavior') is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper.[1]

Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.[2]

Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
The central issue with morality is thus how can the body of standard or principles be objective rather than arbitrarily selected by humans or delivered from a God.

This is why, whatever the body of standard and principles, they must be derived from moral facts that are verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral framework and system.

Case Study:
  • On the subject of abortion and the moral fact,
    what is the related moral fact is this oughtness, i.e.
    "no human ought to abort the unborn [human*]"
    * only applicable to humans and to not non-humans.

    Now the above oughtness can only be a moral fact when it is verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral framework and system.
    Thus the moral fact is objective, i.e. independent of an individual's opinion and beliefs regardless of how strong the reason the individual has.

    Every fact is that claimed to be a moral fact must be individually verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral framework and system.

    To justify no-abortion as a moral fact is a bit more complicated.
Case Study 2
  • What I have justified quite sufficiently as a moral fact is the following;
    "no human ought to murder* humans"
    as a Justified True Moral Fact within a moral framework and system.
    * or killing in other instances.
..................
The implementation of the moral standard based on moral fact [e.g. no abortion allowed] as a guide thus set an objective of ZERO Abortion.

With a standard on hand, there are so many fool proof [other than dictatorial] strategies to strive towards the ideal of ZERO Abortion that humanity can generate and implement.
  • For example instead of fire-fighting the issue of abortion why not tackle to root of the problem, i.e. the inability of humans in controlling their sexual lusts that lead to unplanned conceptions.
    There may be other issue besides the problem of sexual lusts, regardless, we need to resolve them at the root level rather resorting to abortion on demand.
Setting the ideal ZERO abortion does not mean, abortion is not permitted at all. There may be cases where abortion is unavoidable for justified reasons, thus abortion is allowed. However humanity must strive to review all root causes for non-compliances with the moral standards.

Therefore personal [or group] judgments and decisions related to moral elements are not moral facts, not morality per se, they are merely personal opinions and beliefs - thus not objective.

What is morality per se is related to the establishment of a moral framework and system [FSK] with justified moral facts as moral standards which are justified empirically and philosophically within the moral FSK - thus morality in this sense is objective.

Caveat lector: What is proposed above is merely a theory [for this Ethical Theory section] thus cannot be implemented effectively at present. However I am optimistic the above theory can be implemented in the future perhaps >50 years or later.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:48 am
by Peter Holmes
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:08 am Personal judgments and decisions made by individuals [in real life or from thought experiments] related to moral elements are not Morality Per se.
These are subjective opinions and beliefs of the individual[s] and they are not moral facts.

Examples of judgments and decisions claimed to be related to morality are those casuistry cases, e.g. the Trolley Problems that question whether it is immoral or moral to kill one fat person instead of 10 on a rail line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

To based 'morality' on judgments and decisions that are supposedly 'moral' is not practical at all. It is impossible for every person to pause to think or argue out a judgement and decision in most cases where a choice of action is required, especially in a short instance.
In addition, human life is so complex that one cannot think of and practice all possible 'moral' situations.

If one make a personal judgment, say, abortion is not morally wrong based on one's strong reason, that is not a moral fact and not morality per se.
It is a fact one made a judgment about abortion, but what is judged 'abortion is not morally wrong' is not a moral fact.
Most will agree the above a subjective opinion or belief.

Since personal judgments and decisions are not morality per se, we need to define what is morality.
Here is a definition of morality in general, [there are more refined definition than the one below].
Morality (from Latin: moralitas, lit. 'manner, character, proper behavior') is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper.[1]

Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.[2]

Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
The central issue with morality is thus how can the body of standard or principles be objective rather than arbitrarily selected by humans or delivered from a God.

This is why, whatever the body of standard and principles, they must be derived from moral facts that are verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral framework and system.

Case Study:
  • On the subject of abortion and the moral fact,
    what is the related moral fact is this oughtness, i.e.
    "no human ought to abort the unborn [human*]"
    * only applicable to humans and to not non-humans.

    Now the above oughtness can only be a moral fact when it is verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral framework and system.
    Thus the moral fact is objective, i.e. independent of an individual's opinion and beliefs regardless of how strong the reason the individual has.

    Every fact is that claimed to be a moral fact must be individually verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral framework and system.

    To justify no-abortion as a moral fact is a bit more complicated.
Case Study 2
  • What I have justified quite sufficiently as a moral fact is the following;
    "no human ought to murder* humans"
    as a Justified True Moral Fact within a moral framework and system.
    * or killing in other instances.
..................
The implementation of the moral standard based on moral fact [e.g. no abortion allowed] as a guide thus set an objective of ZERO Abortion.

With a standard on hand, there are so many fool proof [other than dictatorial] strategies to strive towards the ideal of ZERO Abortion that humanity can generate and implement.
  • For example instead of fire-fighting the issue of abortion why not tackle to root of the problem, i.e. the inability of humans in controlling their sexual lusts that lead to unplanned conceptions.
    There may be other issue besides the problem of sexual lusts, regardless, we need to resolve them at the root level rather resorting to abortion on demand.
Setting the ideal ZERO abortion does not mean, abortion is not permitted at all. There may be cases where abortion is unavoidable for justified reasons, thus abortion is allowed. However humanity must strive to review all root causes for non-compliances with the moral standards.

Therefore personal [or group] judgments and decisions related to moral elements are not moral facts, not morality per se, they are merely personal opinions and beliefs - thus not objective.

What is morality per se is related to the establishment of a moral framework and system [FSK] with justified moral facts as moral standards which are justified empirically and philosophically within the moral FSK - thus morality in this sense is objective.

Caveat lector: What is proposed above is merely a theory [for this Ethical Theory section] thus cannot be implemented effectively at present. However I am optimistic the above theory can be implemented in the future perhaps >50 years or later.
Since there are no moral facts, we can't derive a moral system from moral facts.

In fact, what we do is make moral judgements about propriety and impropriety, express them as moral assertions, and develop rules of social conduct, which can change, and have changed over the few thousand years of human social development.

Every single one of your putative moral facts turns out to be the expression of a moral judgement, belief or opinion - and therefore subjective.

Nul point.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:12 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:48 am Since there are no moral facts, we can't derive a moral system from moral facts.
You above is your usual noises without sound justifications.
You cannot recognize moral facts because 'what is a fact' is based merely on a very narrow bastardized linguistic perspective.

Note here where I have demonstrated
'what is a fact-proper'

What is a Fact?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29486

and there are justified-true-moral-facts from a moral FSK.

There are Moral Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29777

The above is reinforced by 56% of philosophers [not tom, dick or harry] accepting moral realism, thus moral facts and morality as objective.
Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893

Where are your supporting sound arguments and credible references?

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:02 am
by Peter Holmes
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:12 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:48 am Since there are no moral facts, we can't derive a moral system from moral facts.
You above is your usual noises without sound justifications.
You cannot recognize moral facts because 'what is a fact' is based merely on a very narrow bastardized linguistic perspective.

Note here where I have demonstrated
'what is a fact-proper'

What is a Fact?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29486

and there are justified-true-moral-facts from a moral FSK.

There are Moral Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29777

The above is reinforced by 56% of philosophers [not tom, dick or harry] accepting moral realism, thus moral facts and morality as objective.
Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893

Where are your supporting sound arguments and credible references?
No, I use the word 'fact' in exactly the same way as you do: 'a thing that is known to exist or to have occurred'. You claim there are moral facts, but have miserably failed to produce evidence of any kind that such things exist. (The so-called 'moral FSK' is a figment of your imagination.)

As it happens, we also use the word 'fact' to mean 'a thing that is known to be true' - which can only be a linguistic assertion. But my understanding of what facts are is not narrowly linguistic. But don't let that stop you saying it is. Keep mumbling your doxology.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:02 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:12 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:48 am Since there are no moral facts, we can't derive a moral system from moral facts.
You above is your usual noises without sound justifications.
You cannot recognize moral facts because 'what is a fact' is based merely on a very narrow bastardized linguistic perspective.

Note here where I have demonstrated
'what is a fact-proper'

What is a Fact?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29486

and there are justified-true-moral-facts from a moral FSK.

There are Moral Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29777

The above is reinforced by 56% of philosophers [not tom, dick or harry] accepting moral realism, thus moral facts and morality as objective.
Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893

Where are your supporting sound arguments and credible references?
No, I use the word 'fact' in exactly the same way as you do: 'a thing that is known to exist or to have occurred'. You claim there are moral facts, but have miserably failed to produce evidence of any kind that such things exist. (The so-called 'moral FSK' is a figment of your imagination.)

As it happens, we also use the word 'fact' to mean 'a thing that is known to be true' - which can only be a linguistic assertion. But my understanding of what facts are is not narrowly linguistic. But don't let that stop you saying it is. Keep mumbling your doxology.
Nope.
What is fact to you is ultimately a fact-in-itself, i.e. absolutely independent of human conditions, thus delusional. But,
There are No Fact-in-Itself
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31591

What is fact to me is not independent from the human conditions but entangles with the human conditions and the universe.
What is fact is FSK or FSR specific.
Moral facts are specific and conditioned upon the moral FSK.

I believe I have given sufficient justifications that moral facts exist within a moral FSK.
You can deny all you want and wallow in ignorance but note,

Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:17 am
by Peter Holmes
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:02 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:12 am
You above is your usual noises without sound justifications.
You cannot recognize moral facts because 'what is a fact' is based merely on a very narrow bastardized linguistic perspective.

Note here where I have demonstrated
'what is a fact-proper'

What is a Fact?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29486

and there are justified-true-moral-facts from a moral FSK.

There are Moral Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29777

The above is reinforced by 56% of philosophers [not tom, dick or harry] accepting moral realism, thus moral facts and morality as objective.
Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893

Where are your supporting sound arguments and credible references?
No, I use the word 'fact' in exactly the same way as you do: 'a thing that is known to exist or to have occurred'. You claim there are moral facts, but have miserably failed to produce evidence of any kind that such things exist. (The so-called 'moral FSK' is a figment of your imagination.)

As it happens, we also use the word 'fact' to mean 'a thing that is known to be true' - which can only be a linguistic assertion. But my understanding of what facts are is not narrowly linguistic. But don't let that stop you saying it is. Keep mumbling your doxology.
Nope.
What is fact to you is ultimately a fact-in-itself, i.e. absolutely independent of human conditions, thus delusional. But,
There are No Fact-in-Itself
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31591

What is fact to me is not independent from the human conditions but entangles with the human conditions and the universe.
What is fact is FSK or FSR specific.
Moral facts are specific and conditioned upon the moral FSK.

I believe I have given sufficient justifications that moral facts exist within a moral FSK.
You can deny all you want and wallow in ignorance but note,

Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893
No, I don't know what a fact-in-itself could possibly be. And this is merely deflection.

You haven't produced evidence for the existence of even one moral fact, empirically and philosophically justified with 'the moral FSK'. So you haven't even done what you think has to be done. You just keep saying that a moral fact has to be ... etc.

Nul point.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:42 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:02 am
No, I use the word 'fact' in exactly the same way as you do: 'a thing that is known to exist or to have occurred'. You claim there are moral facts, but have miserably failed to produce evidence of any kind that such things exist. (The so-called 'moral FSK' is a figment of your imagination.)

As it happens, we also use the word 'fact' to mean 'a thing that is known to be true' - which can only be a linguistic assertion. But my understanding of what facts are is not narrowly linguistic. But don't let that stop you saying it is. Keep mumbling your doxology.
Nope.
What is fact to you is ultimately a fact-in-itself, i.e. absolutely independent of human conditions, thus delusional. But,
There are No Fact-in-Itself
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31591

What is fact to me is not independent from the human conditions but entangles with the human conditions and the universe.
What is fact is FSK or FSR specific.
Moral facts are specific and conditioned upon the moral FSK.

I believe I have given sufficient justifications that moral facts exist within a moral FSK.
You can deny all you want and wallow in ignorance but note,

Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893
No, I don't know what a fact-in-itself could possibly be. And this is merely deflection.
The fact-in-itself is the supposedly "existing-fact" - a feature of reality - that one talk about.
Thus the description of the fact is not the fact-in-itself.
To you the fact-in-itself is independent of human opinions and beliefs.

For example,
there is the fact of chemistry, Water is H2O,
but what is "Water is H2O" really about?
What is that, that-is the something that represent "Water is H2O".

Note I raised the issue here;
Is there an Ultimate Reality?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31550
  • What is that "something prior within "Water is H2O"?"

    Let say you saw [perception 1] a mirage of water in the middle of a desert.

    But you think this is based on perception [2] of "something prior" i.e. the replication of actual water.

    On more closer perception[3] the truth is the actual water is something of a liquid.

    On more closer perception[4] the liquid is wet.

    On more closer perception[5] using a microscope, the wet liquid is make H20 molecules.

    On more closer perception[6] using an electron microscope, the cellulose molecules [H20] are comprised of 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen atoms.

    On more closer perception[7], those molecules are a bundle of generic atoms

    On more closer perception[8], those atoms are a bundle of generic electrons and proton,

    On more closer perception[9], there are various types quarks

    On more closer perception[10], it is bundle of either wave or particle depending on how it is perceived. So, what is seemingly ultimate is not something objectively real but rather subjectively [observer's based] real.

    Thereafter, we are lost and do what know what is the ultimate substance - the Objective Reality of the water we perceived[2] earlier.
Thus the fact "Water is H2O" ended with ultimately nothing to speak of, i.e.
there is no fact-in-itself [no real factual feature of reality] that represent the fact "Water is H2O".
After all what is the whole feature of reality co-entangles with humans, i.e. never independent of the human conditions.
The above explains what is 'fact-in-itself' i.e. what the fact ultimately represent.
The final conclusion there is 'nothing' that is a fact-in-itself.

Thus, philosophically, what you insist "Water is H2O" as a fact is, you are clinging to ultimately what is an illusion.
That is why you are clinging to mysticism woo woo when reflected and investigated with philosophical precision.

You get it?

If you don't understand [not necessary agree with] the above, then your knowledge tube is constipated, that is why you have so much problems with your dogmatism and bigotry.
You haven't produced evidence for the existence of even one moral fact, empirically and philosophically justified with 'the moral FSK'. So you haven't even done what you think has to be done. You just keep saying that a moral fact has to be ... etc.
Nul point.
Nah, I am not bothered with your noises.

You need to understand what is a fact-in-itself first then you will understand how I have justified moral facts within a moral FSK.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:48 am
by Peter Holmes
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:42 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am
Nope.
What is fact to you is ultimately a fact-in-itself, i.e. absolutely independent of human conditions, thus delusional. But,
There are No Fact-in-Itself
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31591

What is fact to me is not independent from the human conditions but entangles with the human conditions and the universe.
What is fact is FSK or FSR specific.
Moral facts are specific and conditioned upon the moral FSK.

I believe I have given sufficient justifications that moral facts exist within a moral FSK.
You can deny all you want and wallow in ignorance but note,

Survey: 56% of Philosophers Accept Moral Realism
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30893
No, I don't know what a fact-in-itself could possibly be. And this is merely deflection.
The fact-in-itself is the supposedly "existing-fact" - a feature of reality - that one talk about.
Thus the description of the fact is not the fact-in-itself.
To you the fact-in-itself is independent of human opinions and beliefs.

For example,
there is the fact of chemistry, Water is H2O,
but what is "Water is H2O" really about?
What is that, that-is the something that represent "Water is H2O".

Note I raised the issue here;
Is there an Ultimate Reality?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31550
  • What is that "something prior within "Water is H2O"?"

    Let say you saw [perception 1] a mirage of water in the middle of a desert.

    But you think this is based on perception [2] of "something prior" i.e. the replication of actual water.

    On more closer perception[3] the truth is the actual water is something of a liquid.

    On more closer perception[4] the liquid is wet.

    On more closer perception[5] using a microscope, the wet liquid is make H20 molecules.

    On more closer perception[6] using an electron microscope, the cellulose molecules [H20] are comprised of 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen atoms.

    On more closer perception[7], those molecules are a bundle of generic atoms

    On more closer perception[8], those atoms are a bundle of generic electrons and proton,

    On more closer perception[9], there are various types quarks

    On more closer perception[10], it is bundle of either wave or particle depending on how it is perceived. So, what is seemingly ultimate is not something objectively real but rather subjectively [observer's based] real.

    Thereafter, we are lost and do what know what is the ultimate substance - the Objective Reality of the water we perceived[2] earlier.
Thus the fact "Water is H2O" ended with ultimately nothing to speak of, i.e.
there is no fact-in-itself [no real factual feature of reality] that represent the fact "Water is H2O".
After all what is the whole feature of reality co-entangles with humans, i.e. never independent of the human conditions.
The above explains what is 'fact-in-itself' i.e. what the fact ultimately represent.
The final conclusion there is 'nothing' that is a fact-in-itself.

Thus, philosophically, what you insist "Water is H2O" as a fact is, you are clinging to ultimately what is an illusion.
That is why you are clinging to mysticism woo woo when reflected and investigated with philosophical precision.

You get it?

If you don't understand [not necessary agree with] the above, then your knowledge tube is constipated, that is why you have so much problems with your dogmatism and bigotry.
You haven't produced evidence for the existence of even one moral fact, empirically and philosophically justified with 'the moral FSK'. So you haven't even done what you think has to be done. You just keep saying that a moral fact has to be ... etc.
Nul point.
Nah, I am not bothered with your noises.

You need to understand what is a fact-in-itself first then you will understand how I have justified moral facts within a moral FSK.
So there are no facts-in-themselves - whatever they are - but there are moral facts-within-the-moral-framework-and-system-of-knowledge.

Now, we can demonstrate the chemical composition of water 'within-the-chemistry-framework-and-system-of-knowledge', because what we call water really is what we call a compound of what we call hydrogen and oxygen. And none of this is illusory. It's empirically verifiable.

But what and where is a supposed moral fact, such as the wrongness of humans killing humans? If it's a feature of reality, then it must be empirically verifiable, if only in principle.

Fail, fail and fail again. And why? Because the very idea of a moral fact is incoherent.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:49 am
by Skepdick
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:48 am But what and where is a supposed moral fact, such as the wrongness of humans killing humans? If it's a feature of reality, then it must be empirically verifiable, if only in principle.
Then what are you expressing with the word "wrongness" ?

If you aren't expressing anything empirically verifiable (by you) then why are you using the word ?

Every single one of my emotions, feelings and experiences is empirically verifiable. By me.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:44 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:48 am
So there are no facts-in-themselves - whatever they are - but there are moral facts-within-the-moral-framework-and-system-of-knowledge.

Now, we can demonstrate the chemical composition of water 'within-the-chemistry-framework-and-system-of-knowledge', because what we call water really is what we call a compound of what we call hydrogen and oxygen. And none of this is illusory. It's empirically verifiable.

But what and where is a supposed moral fact, such as the wrongness of humans killing humans? If it's a feature of reality, then it must be empirically verifiable, if only in principle.

Fail, fail and fail again. And why? Because the very idea of a moral fact is incoherent.
I'll leave it to your insistence there are no moral facts.
You can continue to respond to whatever you like, perhaps you will get it somehow.

Re: Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:47 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Skepdick wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:49 am Every single one of my emotions, feelings and experiences is empirically verifiable. By me.
Including empirically verifiable by scientists within the scientific FSK and any one who use the same tests as the scientists.