Philosophy Now Forum

We are similar in the essence, minds, but different in surface, bodies.

Yes, but that is only in one specific perspective.
The mind [mental] is an emergent from brain activities, thus there is no 'you' or 'we' if there are only dead bodies.

In another perspective, what is 'you' is the physical self in combination of mental activities which are conditioned within the environment and the Universe.

In another perspective, there is no 'you' or the self [note Hume's self = bundle of mental activities] but that is off topic.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:28 am Yes, but that is only in one specific perspective.
The mind [mental] is an emergent from brain activities, thus there is no 'you' or 'we' if there are only dead bodies.

In another perspective, what is 'you' is the physical self in combination of mental activities which are conditioned within the environment and the Universe.

In another perspective, there is no 'you' or the self [note Hume's self = bundle of mental activities] but that is off topic.

This we discussed in-depth, there is no such thing as emergence.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:16 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:28 am Yes, but that is only in one specific perspective.
The mind [mental] is an emergent from brain activities, thus there is no 'you' or 'we' if there are only dead bodies.

In another perspective, what is 'you' is the physical self in combination of mental activities which are conditioned within the environment and the Universe.

In another perspective, there is no 'you' or the self [note Hume's self = bundle of mental activities] but that is off topic.

This we discussed in-depth, there is no such thing as emergence.

What is most obvious of most human activities [except autonomic ones] is they are mental activities via the brain. They are empirically verifiable.
The brain is a basically physical.
What is purely physical cannot generate mental activities.
The collective system within the physical brain that generate all mental activities can be term 'mind' or whatever names it be called.
Thus this collective mental system literally emerge from the physical brain.
Therefore the mind [whatever name it be termed] is an emergent property.

What is wrong with the above argument?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:50 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:16 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:28 am Yes, but that is only in one specific perspective.
The mind [mental] is an emergent from brain activities, thus there is no 'you' or 'we' if there are only dead bodies.

In another perspective, what is 'you' is the physical self in combination of mental activities which are conditioned within the environment and the Universe.

In another perspective, there is no 'you' or the self [note Hume's self = bundle of mental activities] but that is off topic.

This we discussed in-depth, there is no such thing as emergence.

What is most obvious of most human activities [except autonomic ones] is they are mental activities via the brain. They are empirically verifiable.
The brain is a basically physical.
What is purely physical cannot generate mental activities.
The collective system within the physical brain that generate all mental activities can be term 'mind' or whatever names it be called.
Thus this collective mental system literally emerge from the physical brain.
Therefore the mind [whatever name it be termed] is an emergent property.

What is wrong with the above argument?

There are two problems here, first problem being mind to me is not a set of activities of the brain but the essence of any being with the ability to experience and cause, and second I already provide my argument in regard to emergence before. Do you want me to repeat it?

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:41 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:50 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:16 pm
This we discussed in-depth, there is no such thing as emergence.

What is most obvious of most human activities [except autonomic ones] is they are mental activities via the brain. They are empirically verifiable.
The brain is a basically physical.
What is purely physical cannot generate mental activities.
The collective system within the physical brain that generate all mental activities can be term 'mind' or whatever names it be called.
Thus this collective mental system literally emerge from the physical brain.
Therefore the mind [whatever name it be termed] is an emergent property.

What is wrong with the above argument?

There are two problems here, first problem being mind to me is not a set of activities of the brain but the essence of any being with the ability to experience and cause, and second I already provide my argument in regard to emergence before. Do you want me to repeat it?

If you believe the mind is the essence of any being and not a set of activities of the brain, then, you are referring to the soul that can survive physical death.

If you don't mind, you can repeat what is emergence to you.

To me, mind as an emergence is something like the emergence of synergy, i.e.

• synergy = the combined power of a group of things [parts] when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately:

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no mind [no synergy] at all.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:41 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:50 am
What is most obvious of most human activities [except autonomic ones] is they are mental activities via the brain. They are empirically verifiable.
The brain is a basically physical.
What is purely physical cannot generate mental activities.
The collective system within the physical brain that generate all mental activities can be term 'mind' or whatever names it be called.
Thus this collective mental system literally emerge from the physical brain.
Therefore the mind [whatever name it be termed] is an emergent property.

What is wrong with the above argument?

There are two problems here, first problem being mind to me is not a set of activities of the brain but the essence of any being with the ability to experience and cause, and second I already provide my argument in regard to emergence before. Do you want me to repeat it?

If you believe the mind is the essence of any being and not a set of activities of the brain, then, you are referring to the soul that can survive physical death.

Yes, we can call it soul.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am If you don't mind, you can repeat what is emergence to you.

To me, mind as an emergence is something like the emergence of synergy, i.e.

• synergy = the combined power of a group of things [parts] when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately:

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no mind [no synergy] at all.

By the emergence, I mean that the whole has a property which parts do not have depending on condition.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:19 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:41 pm
There are two problems here, first problem being mind to me is not a set of activities of the brain but the essence of any being with the ability to experience and cause, and second I already provide my argument in regard to emergence before. Do you want me to repeat it?

If you believe the mind is the essence of any being and not a set of activities of the brain, then, you are referring to the soul that can survive physical death.

Yes, we can call it soul.

A soul that survives physical death is an illusion as demonstrated by Kant.

According to Hume, there is no permanent soul or self; the self is merely a bundle of mental activities within a physical body. If the body is dead, the self disappear.

Btw, what is of use to postulate there is a real soul [essence of any being] that survives after physical death?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am If you don't mind, you can repeat what is emergence to you.

To me, mind as an emergence is something like the emergence of synergy, i.e.

• synergy = the combined power of a group of things [parts] when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately:

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no mind [no synergy] at all.

By the emergence, I mean that the whole has a property which parts do not have depending on condition.

So what you meant by emergence is equivalent to 'synergy' as define above.

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no emergence of mind nor synergy.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:32 pm We are similar in the essence, minds, but different in surface, bodies.

"Similar"?

That means you think there's a bunch of us. Not just one cosmic Mind. A whole bunch of individual minds, floating around in...what? Separated and made distinct from each other by...what?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:44 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:19 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am
If you believe the mind is the essence of any being and not a set of activities of the brain, then, you are referring to the soul that can survive physical death.

Yes, we can call it soul.

A soul that survives physical death is an illusion as demonstrated by Kant.

According to Hume, there is no permanent soul or self; the self is merely a bundle of mental activities within a physical body. If the body is dead, the self disappear.

Btw, what is of use to postulate there is a real soul [essence of any being] that survives after physical death?

Hume was wrong. The change exists. That is due to a mind (I can prove this). Therefore, a mind exists. Mind is a substance that is irreducible, it can decide, therefore, it is an uncaused cause (I can prove this too).

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:44 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am If you don't mind, you can repeat what is emergence to you.

To me, mind as an emergence is something like the emergence of synergy, i.e.

• synergy = the combined power of a group of things [parts] when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately:

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no mind [no synergy] at all.

By the emergence, I mean that the whole has a property which parts do not have depending on condition.

So what you meant by emergence is equivalent to 'synergy' as define above.

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no emergence of mind nor synergy.

The argument against the hard emergence (the whole is bigger than its parts when it comes to the properties of the whole and parts). Consider a system made of parts that the whole has different property than the property of parts. There is however a reason why the whole has such properties than another property given the condition. Therefore, the property of the whole is a function. The only variables that exist are the property of parts. Therefore, there is no emergence.

What is happening in the reality is that the mind experiences through the sensory system. The parts have all the properties but they don't show all of them because the property that is experienced is a function that is a condition of physical. Physical being the what mind experiences and causes.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:28 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:32 pm We are similar in the essence, minds, but different in surface, bodies.

"Similar"?

That means you think there's a bunch of us. Not just one cosmic Mind. A whole bunch of individual minds, floating around in...what? Separated and made distinct from each other by...what?

Mind has the ability to experience and cause physical. What you experience is exposed to you by higher minds. You will live in this illusion until you see the whole truth and know the truth.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:50 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:16 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:28 am Yes, but that is only in one specific perspective.
The mind [mental] is an emergent from brain activities, thus there is no 'you' or 'we' if there are only dead bodies.

In another perspective, what is 'you' is the physical self in combination of mental activities which are conditioned within the environment and the Universe.

In another perspective, there is no 'you' or the self [note Hume's self = bundle of mental activities] but that is off topic.

This we discussed in-depth, there is no such thing as emergence.

1. What is most obvious of most human activities [except autonomic ones] is they are mental activities via the brain. They are empirically verifiable.
2. The brain is a basically physical.
3. What is purely physical cannot generate mental activities.
4. The collective system within the physical brain that generate all mental activities can be term 'mind' or whatever names it be called.
5. Thus this collective mental system literally emerge from the physical brain.
C. Therefore the mind [whatever name it be termed] is an emergent property.

What is wrong with the above argument?

Just about ALL of it.

1. What ACTUAL human activities are "autonomic", to you? What ACTUAL experiments PROVED, or verified empirically, that the human, so called, "non-autonomic" activities are mental activities via the brain. And, what PROOF is there that human, so called, "non-autonomic" activities are NOT mental activities via the brain?

2. WHY do 'you' say the brain is "basically" physical? If it is NOT completely NOR purely physical, then what else could it be?

3. This CLAIM of YOURS here, to me, is just you 'trying to' "justify" and back up and support your previous CLAIM. That is; If you want to make the CLAIM that a "purely" physical thing can NOT generate mental activities, then you would also 'have to' admit that the actual thing that generates mental activities would 'have to' then be NOT "purely" or NOT "basically" physical itself. Just out of curiosity, WHY do you want to make the CLAIM that "what is purely physical cannot generate mental activities' in the beginning, anyway?

4. You now CLAIM that there is some 'collective system', 'within' the PHYSICAL brain, that actually generates ALL 'mental activities', and that this 'collective system', (whatever this may be) we can 'term' or 'call' whatever we want to name 'it'. Now, what is this 'collective system', itself, and what is 'this' actually made up of, EXACTLY?

5. You now CLAIM that this 'collective system' is 'mental', itself, and which LITERALLY 'emerges' from the 'physical brain'. Which is an ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY ABSURD and RIDICULOUS CLAIM especially considering the CLAIMS you made prior to this here.

C. Is just YOUR OWN BELIEF, which you ALREADY had PREVIOUSLY, BEFORE you made these CLAIMS here.

All you are doing here is just 'trying' absolutely ANY thing in an attempt to 'try to' back up and support your previously ALREADY GAINED BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

That is what IS WRONG with YOUR, so called, "argument" above.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:28 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:28 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:32 pm We are similar in the essence, minds, but different in surface, bodies.

"Similar"?

That means you think there's a bunch of us. Not just one cosmic Mind. A whole bunch of individual minds, floating around in...what? Separated and made distinct from each other by...what?

Mind has the ability to experience and cause physical.

Okay: but is the "physical" it causes real, or a mere figment of mind, and not real?

... higher minds...

So all is NOT one mind?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:44 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:19 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am
If you believe the mind is the essence of any being and not a set of activities of the brain, then, you are referring to the soul that can survive physical death.

Yes, we can call it soul.

A soul that survives physical death is an illusion as demonstrated by Kant.

According to Hume, there is no permanent soul or self; the self is merely a bundle of mental activities within a physical body. If the body is dead, the self disappear.

So, two human beings say some 'thing', and 'you' take this as 'gospel'.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:44 am Btw, what is of use to postulate there is a real soul [essence of any being] that survives after physical death?

There is NO real use to 'postulate' absolutely ANY thing, other than to just express what one ASSUMES.

But what is of use to EXPLAIN 'that' what ACTUALLY survives after the physical death of a body is to SHOW and REVEAL thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

Just like EXPLAINING EXACTLY HOW there is NO permanent soul NOR self ALSO SHOWS and REVEALS what thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' IS.

But, as I have been EXPLAINING, thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' can NOT be EXPLAINED to those who ALREADY BELIEVE that they ALREADY KNOW what the Truth is.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:44 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:42 am If you don't mind, you can repeat what is emergence to you.

To me, mind as an emergence is something like the emergence of synergy, i.e.

• synergy = the combined power of a group of things [parts] when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately:

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no mind [no synergy] at all.

By the emergence, I mean that the whole has a property which parts do not have depending on condition.

So what you meant by emergence is equivalent to 'synergy' as define above.

If all the separate parts of the brain and whole body are dead, there is no emergence of mind nor synergy.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:28 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:32 pm We are similar in the essence, minds, but different in surface, bodies.

"Similar"?

That means you think there's a bunch of us. Not just one cosmic Mind. A whole bunch of individual minds, floating around in...what? Separated and made distinct from each other by...what?

The individual and separated human bodies. Each and EVERY one of 'you' is DISTINCTLY separate AND different OBVIOUSLY.

Although there is NOT a whole bunch of individual "minds" AT ALL, there is a whole bunch of individual 'you's', "floating around in a whole bunch of individual human bodies".

As can be CLEARLY SEEN, EVIDENCED, and PROVEN True.

Literally EVERY body is different.

Because EVERY different body causes EVERY one of 'you', human beings, to be different, and it is the EXACT SAME reason WHY ALL of 'you' are VERY individually different, is HOW and WHY 'you' are ALL essentially the EXACT SAME 'thing'.

Once 'you' learn how the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY work, then ALL-OF-THIS is FULLY understood.